Part layout starting with left page - possible?

Hi,

is there a possibility to tell Dorico that the first page is a left page?
For parts with e.g. only 2 pages (or 4 pages printed in duplex mode) that would be nice.

Best -

Andreas

Do a page number override. Set the first page to number to 2.

Hi Craig,

thanks - that works fine!

Would be nice to have a default setting to make parts start on the left page, as parts that I write often have two pages only.

Best -

Andreas

You can make this change for multiple layouts at the same time by selecting them in the left-hand list in Layout Options and then changing the first page number. You can even make page 2 the default first page for all part layouts by saving that as the default setting in the Layout Options dialog.

Thanks Daniel!

If I want proper page numbers (2nd page is numbered 2 instead of 3), I have to to another page number override on the 2nd page, right?
That is possible, of course, but maybe it would be slightly more intuitive, if Dorico had an “Start Layout with left page”-option, which does those steps automatically.

Best - Andreas

Sorry, Andreas, I don’t think I understand what you’re actually asking for here. If the second page should be numbered 2, then isn’t the first page numbered 1? You want the first page to be numbered 1, but you want it to be a left-hander?

Hi Daniel, thank you for asking.

In fact, that’s exactly what I’m asking for :wink:

I often write music for bigbands.
The parts often have 2 pages only. In this case, the left page is numbered 1, the second is numbered 2.
If a part has 3 pages, the musician normally open them all at once and puts them on the desk so that there are 3 pages side by side. (1-2-3).
Even if a part consists of 4 pages, they are (sometimes, not always) printed duplex in that way, so that you have pages 1-2 on on side of the (DINA3)-paper and pages 3-4 on the backside. That can be a good solution, because you only have to turn pages once.

If you want, I can provide examples.

Hope that helps clarifying.
Sorry - English is not my native language :wink:

Best - Andreas

Andreas, this is against all conventions.
Unequal pagenumbers (1, 3, 5) you will find on the front of a page (verso) and equal pagenumbers (2, 4, 6) on the back of a page (recto). So if you have a booklet, you will find the equal pagenumbers to the left of two pages and unequal numbers to the right.
They are also by convention placed to the outside to the pages…
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paginierung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_numbering

Hello k_b,

thanks for your reply.

In general this is the convention, of course.
But in fact, if you have a two page part, you have two pages side by side and it makes no sense two start with page number 2:


Here is an example of a conductor sheet printed double-sided:

Front:


Back:

Thanks for your attention.

Best -

Andreas

In the music which I generally handle (which mostly comprises classical chamber music, orchestral scores and parts, lead sheets, musical theatre vocal scores and band parts, and choral music) the convention is for left hand pages to be even numbers and right hand pages to be odd numbers.

In a part that only lasts two sides, which are printed next to each other, the assumption is that for easy storage the part will be folded - the title page (whether there’s a title there or not) is always assumed to be page 1, and the two pages or music are pages 2 and 3.

I agree with you that the Gordon Goodwin chart has what you’re asking for, and is clearly published that way (and I love that album!). The Nestico looks like a poor example - all the page numbers are in the top left corner, giving no clues towards intended pagination, and it looks to me like a (slightly off) photocopy that may not be laid out as originally intended.

It does beg the question: on a two-page part is there any purpose in showing page numbers at all?

In choirs, when rehearsing two-page pieces, I’ve often heard “from the top of page 3” and murmurings of “there isn’t a along he 3”. If you follow the convention you cause problems, and if you don’t follow the convention you’re breaking convention!

Dear Daniel, if understand right the problem hier is where a page number appears. Normally Dorico writes a second page number on a left side. That means a turn after a first page. But musicians usually never turn a page in such situation. They put these pages side by side.

There is actually not a problem to print and to use them this way, just there is a question about an elegance and love to detail Dorico is already famous for. I guess what AndreasB is asking for - is it possible to tell Dorico that there is no turn after a 1st page. So in this case Dorico would automatically move a number of a second page to the right side.

In Sibelius I had the same problem even if there are more then 2 pages in one part. To make a performance as convenient as possible everybody tries to create a minimal amount of turns. After taking a look to the whole part I decide usually if it is better to turn after a first or second page. But if I decide to turn after a second one, a location of page numbers will be in a whole part wrong.

Would be great if user could decide and even be able to adjust it manually. Probably a considerable alternative solution could be to let Dorico to set page number in a middle of the page? Then we wont have some confusion at all.

I would like to stick to conventions in case of page numbering.
Otherwise we get the (so called) Chinese folios.
I guess, if a language is written “the other way round”, a different pagination might make
sense. Traditional music is written from left to right, so the pagination conventions do make sense…

For the occasions when this is a preference, one can just edit the Master Pages to put the numbers where the engraver wants them. One could even make a template of the file to use in future situations.

Since this is not a really common situation, it is not something that needs a one-button solution, at least not at this stage of the Dorico development process IMO.

Is it not a common situation when orchestra musician is playing a piece which contains 2 pages? I am sorry. I conduct orchestras and arrange for them over 20 years. It is extremely common situation. Other question is a stage of Dorico development. I can here agree with you totally. Anyway some future solution would be welcome😊

I will add my meager two cents: as a keyboardist, I truly loath editions (which, sadly, is almost all of them) that start pieces on the right page. I have seen innumerable editions that stick to “convention” and it is a total pain in the ____. You’re barely into the work and boom. Page turn. A series of small 2-page compositions with a page turn in the middle of each work rather than on an open spread. Hymnals do it too. Why on earth would you force a congregation to turn the page in the middle a 2 page hymn that could lay on opposite sides??? It’s maddening.

My own personal habit has been to create a title page on “page 1” so that whenever something prints it always starts as an open spread. For most pianists/organists of the world, turning your own pages simply doesn’t work for a lot of rep. So, +1 for allowing the convention to be bent. That said, I do not really have an issue with the numbering convention. It’s akin to books of literature that do not start on “page 1” but 13, after you get through the introduction. As this comment has sparked a different thought I will add this: a neat feature would be to have opening pages with roman numerals for an index, and then set a switching point page where the normal numbering starts. That way you could index longer scores and even add notes, etc. (which dorico already allows) without affecting the page numbers of the scores.

With organ or piano pieces I too put a title page for the same reason.

Doing title pages works fine for solo instrument editions e.g. Piano, Organ, but would be a waste of ink for a 2 page spread for band or orchestral parts.

I believe Dorico’s full customization in Page layout is a strength, and concerns such as these can be handled with Page overrides and additional master pages (2-up), (Title plus 2), (more than 2 pages), etc. Perhaps as Dorico matures some of these structures could be chosen as templates within the program itself. Or the user community could share layout designs with one another in a forum such as this.

I personally don’t use any page numbers for 2-page spread parts layouts that are printed on one sheet of paper or bound. Page numbers (to me at least) are more useful for greater than 2 page projects, which is Dorico’s default behavior.

I’m sure in Dorioco’s early life so far, the dev team has most likely had to make some assumptions in regard to the work flow of users. (Even when it goes against their philosophical desire to do so!)

I’m really not sure what kind of automatic solution we could come up with here. You can make the first page number of a layout 2 if you want. You can print such a layout 2-up so that page 1 is printed on the left and page 2 is on the right. You can change whether or not page numbers appear, either via Layout Options, or via editing the master page used for your layout. You can change the placement of bar numbers in a layout by editing its master pages. I really feel like we have all the bases covered.

The issue, for me, is that professionally produced books, magazines, journals, scores, parts, etc. never ever ever have even numbered pages on the right. I can’t think of a single example, anywhere. (I would be curious to see one if it does exist!)

So for Dorico to have a special feature for putting even-numbered would seem wrong.

Dredging this old thread up just to add my voice to the OP’s that an option for the first page to be on the left would be much appreciated for many of us big band composers. To me it is a matter of player convenience first.