pedal not viewable but midi wise present

Dorico
#1

Hello there.
So - I wanted to introduce a pedal over a group of notes but although the event was active midi wise - the sign was not viewable in the score itself in both engrave and write modes, same was true when I tried to do it for one note only.

I tried to use a frame break thinking maybe there is not enough space for it to be shown but for no avail.

I do see the orange markings that the Ped. exists… but I do not see the sign itself nor can I edit it.

Thanking in advance for your fast reply.
chers - Rami.
Rites of Nature and Men 270220.zip (523 KB)

#2

Dear Rami,
What kind of Pedal notation have you chosen (Engraving options) if you have access to Engraving options — What Dorico are you running ?
How did you input the pedal? Is this a MIDI import? XML import?

#3

Thanking you very much for your questions and your reply.
The Dorico Version is 3.1.0.1021, I am using the Glyph Ped notation to be found on the right hand side of the User Interface under keyboards playing techniques.
To introduce the Ped. sign, I select the notes I care to Ped. and press the Ped. symbol button. this have worked in previous staffs but not on others for some reason.
Under the Edit - I see the “undo create event” meaning that the Ped. was recorded as a midi event but not as a graphic event.
This phenomena is occurring as of measure 48 in the score, the previous measures are ok in that respect.
I am inserting the notes with a mouse…
I hope there is a solution, thanking in advance.
Chers - Rami.

#4

Is the staff you are trying to apply the Ped. mark(s) to defined in Setup as an instrument that takes Ped. marks (Piano, Vibes, etc.)?

#5

If you attach the project here, we’ll be able to advise. My guess is that perhaps you’re changing the number of staves belonging to the piano, or are hiding one or other of them, etc., but it would be trivial to diagnose the problem if you attach the project. Zip it up and attach it here and we’ll take a look.

#6

Absolutely, kindly find per your advice file attached at the top of this discussion.

Regards - Rami.

#7

Thanks for attaching your project file. The problem is that at bar 48, you remove the original top staff of the piano, and that messes up pedal lines. If you can arrange the staves at that point such that the original right-hand and left-hand staves of the piano are shown, the pedal lines will continue to appear there. (Really this shouldn’t happen, but there are some wrinkles with how pedal lines work that rely on the right-hand staff being present. We have plans for how to resolve this in future, but it’s reasonably involved.)

#8

Hello Daniel and thank you very much for your reply, I see its where it says +1 staff -2 staves.
I understand I need to insert another piano staff instead of what I have now.
I’ll try that if I can.
Appreciate your input.

Bests - Rami.

#9

So - I was trying to sort the piece from bar 48 as you have suggested ( I think ).
I selected all bars from bar 48 , copied and pasted them to a new project.
I am getting missing notes, stemless notes, different clefs.
Although Some of this was easy to fix some was not as it was not possible to re-paste selected notes from the previous project to the new one and instead of music I was getting rests. It may be that for Dorico the flows in the previous project were such that it causes such a behaviour from the software, I do not know, I do expect from a software to paste flawlessly its own copied output.
That said I want you to know that you have my deepest respect and admiration for the work that you people do.
The support in the forum for the software is beyond fantastic.
I have taken the liberty to attache the pasted music project to this discussion.
Obviously I am a novice to Dorico and perhaps I encounter all these because my work flow isn’t right… Yet again… copy and paste… should be trivial.
r-o-n-m- paste after copy - mising notes and more.zip (463 KB)

#10

It wouldn’t be necessary to move everything to a whole new project: it should be sufficient to simply remove the staff count changes (find all of the signposts that say e.g. “+1 staff” or “-2 staves” and delete them), then you should be able to see which staves the music is on throughout the piece, and at that point you should be able to ensure that when only two staves are required, the music is always on the original RH and LH staves. Then you can restore the staff changes as needed.

#11

Always most thankful for your willingness and replies.

So - I have deleted these markings (+1 stave -2 staffes) as you have suggested, this have resulted in terrible chos as all the music was erased leaving aside but a few surviving notes spreading here and there wondering about…

I have realised that Dorico doesn’t agree with my measures as of 48 so I have decided to erase everything as of that measure, this have created obscurity onto measure 47 which I was able to fix fast enough.

I have then acted as instructed, alt click to place the about to be pasted material ctrl+c and ctrl+v, the result came with stemless notes missing notes
and total chaos.

I have then started to copy notes from a backed up project to the “new” one but for no avail, I have worked with one measure trying to copy and paste small segments but that didn’t work either as Dorico gave me rests in return for the notes copied in.

As I am on a trial basis, my conclusion at this point is that although it was very easy to be embraced by Dorico in the beginning and work with it, the problems I am getting will prevent me from purchasing the software either because what I do is wrong or for whatever other reasons.

I think I should return to the pencil and his friend the page to deal with all that and leave this work ro a pro.

Most kind regards - cheers - Rami.

#12

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve become discouraged by this experience. As first projects go for learning a new notation program, this is one of the most challenging I’ve seen somebody attempt. The problem with what’s happened after bar 47 is two-fold: not only is the music no longer shown on the two original piano staves (which is why the pedal lines cannot appear), but almost all of the material in those bars has been crossed to a staff other than the one on which it was originally input.

I’m not sure by what process you arrived at this result, but I guess it must have involved inputting the music on one staff, then deciding you wanted it on another, so using the N or M shortcuts to cross that music to another staff, then adding or removing staves until you got something that looked the way you wanted it to.

I’ve spent a bit of time trying to unpick this myself, and unfortunately things are so mixed up after bar 47 that I’m not sure I’m able to do this in a timely fashion, though if it is crucial to you, I could reinput the music from scratch again for you and try to keep it straight.

I would hope that if you were to try this project again, you would not fall into some of the same traps of crossing music from one staff to another and adding/removing staves in such a complex way; obviously Dorico does not provide you with all the help you need to know that the staves you’ve ended up with are the original piano staves, and also in an ideal world it would not matter which staves are shown in order for the pedal lines to appear (which is something that we will address in a future version).

#13

So very thankful for your reply and best intentions.

I have tried to work again on the project today.

( When I wrote this piece and copied it - it took a long time, I was using a fountain Art Pen and 3 rapidographs…
Believe me… it’s much faster that way… although I don’t get a “performance” and in deed this work hasn’t been performed yet - long time ago I used cakewalk to get a computerised performance for it - and I strive to get a performance now… why after 30 years?? better late than never as the phrase goes , which is why I thought using a software will help me simplify things although sure enough a lot of editing was expected after words including perhaps turning the music from a solo work onto two pianos )

I read your 2nd phrase about how the music is not shown on the originals staves and how the fact that I have used crossings must have made a destructive impact on the notation, I can’t help asking myself - why would this should matter to Dorico, for if Dorico allows something to happen inside the U.I. and notates it - then editing this material should not result in my opinion with catastrophic acts on the edited material.

Yet again I think you are truly great in your support and willingness. I feel sorry for all of this truly.

Wishing the very best.

Cheers - Rami.

#14

I agree with you: in an ideal world Dorico should be able to cater for everything you could want to do. But unfortunately there are practical limits on what can be achieved in terms of allowing edits to be completely reversed in a way that preserves everything about them. Again, in an ideal world you shouldn’t have to care whether or not the original right-hand staff of the piano is visible in order for the pedal line to appear, and the fact that this does matter certainly indicates a flaw in the software’s design, something which we are well aware of and have intentions to fix. But normally it is possible for the right-hand staff of the piano to be visible, which means that in normal use, this flaw in the design has no real-world detrimental effect. It’s only in unusual cases that the problem can occur. You, as a user of the software, would ideally never need to know anything about this, and I regret that in your first project with the software you’ve run into a corner that it’s hard to get out of.

#15

My dear - I’ll try again, I wanted to thank you for your suggestion to do this for me but I’d feel ashamed asking you to do this. will give it a try.
Let’s see if I can progress :slight_smile: God bless.