PERCUSSION MAPS AND BBCSO

I am a new user of Dorico.

I use Dorico 3 with the BBCSO Core and the template BBCSO for Dorico.

All is ok, but when I write a roll for the side drum track, Dorico doesn’t play the good sound.
That’s strange because the roll exist in the percussion map with the good Keyswitch.

And when I play on my midi keyboard the roll note ( here midi note 57 ), I hear the good sound but impossible to write it in my staff !!

If you can help me about this problem !
Thanks
Sam

Welcome to the forum, Sam. I don’t personally have the BBC SO libraries installed so I don’t have any direct experience of this, but is the problem possibly that you need to use one more tremolo stroke to trigger the unmeasured tremolo?

Check that your Endpoint has the map set properly. Also check your playing techniques track in the piano roll is generating the playing technique corresponding to your keyswitch.

thank you both for your answers.

I have checked the note that corresponds to the sound I want.
I saved the playbach settings from the BBCSO Core library in Dorico.
The parameters are good and indicate the right keyboard note. There is even an indication of playing technique associated with this note (here it’s Roll because I need the snare drum roll sound).

But when I listen to the playbach, Dorico plays a snare drum roll, but no rolls even if I indicate the playing technique by Roll, or tremolo or trill. Nothing changes.

And another strange point :
When I select a measure in the snare drum staff to write notes, I scroll through the proposed sounds and playing techniques.
BBCSO offers 7 or 8 playing techniques (rim shot, snare, roll, etc …) but Dorico only displays 3 !

Sorry for these questions, but when I will have understood that, I will be able to advance in my job … well I hope !
Thanks for your help !

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

You can define more noteheads etc. to produce the other playing techniques using the Edit Percussion Playing Techniques dialog.

I’ll ask my colleague John to look in on this thread, as he designed the playback templates for BBCSO.

there is no side drum in BBC Core. When I tried to load it through the default template, nothing happened and I checked in the Untuned percussion list, it wasn’t there. I don’t see it in the manual either nor in the percussion map. If you tell me the name of the instrument you’re actually using then I’ll happily check it out and see if I’m getting the same. Is it the standard snare drum? I usually use three strokes for tremolos which certainly works fine with the Timpani – are these working OK with you?

I think the issue might be that for e.g. snare drum I’ve assigned the expression map to the ‘roll’ technique, but unless you use the Dorico project template that isn’t defined by default for the ‘three stoke’ technique.
If you just load the playback template and add three strokes it is looking for ‘tremolo’ instead.

So for now either edit the snare and add the ‘roll’ option, or edit the percussion map and change the snare ‘roll’ to ‘tremolo’. I’ll talk to Daniel about it and maybe update the template.

John

Thank you for your feedback which I read with interest!
I think John is close to the solution, even if I am very far from his technical skills.
That’s why I was interested in BBCSO template so that I wouldn’t have to do programming and dedicate myself to music writing.

The rendering at the moment with the technical “3 stokes” is far from the actual rendering of a roll. They are repeated notes, and to the ear it’s really very different.

I’ll wait until the next update and thank you again for your great work!

Sam hello,
Seems to me that probably the problem you are experiencing is related to the Articulations/Expressions playback offset?! Since the mapping is correct but only the playback is problematic…
If the midi note is slightly before the grid, the Expression/Percussion map won’t be triggered. Unfortunately the Expression/Articulation offset isn’t
available in Dorico yet.
How do you enter the notes in Dorico, by real-time recording, step-input, or by computer keyboard?

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

Hi John, I´m trying to get timpani rolls to work with the BBC SO Pro ( I have the expression maps setup from your template), but since the method above (Edit Percussion Playing Technique from the Player Card) isn´t available for Pitched Percussion, I´m a bit stuck… I have managed to get the roll by using technique text, but not ideal, wold prefer a stem with buzzroll.

There’s actually a mistake in the BBC SO Timpani map, it seems. The technique for C#-1 should be “buzz roll” and not just “roll” so you should edit it. This way it does work.

Great, thanks for clearing that one up!

I need some help, please.

I’m running BBCSO pro on a VEP server and its all working great, but having issues with the bass drum/percussion instrument changes and percussion maps.

Issue 1 - switching instruments

I took the BBCSO pro template and redid the playback instruments into VEP with no problem. But I can’t for the life of me figure out what’s going on in the percussion/bass drum player. In setup its labelled as ‘percussion’, as a player with the full instrument list. In write the player is listed as bass drum and I can’t get it to sound or switch different instruments. I’m on mac, so there is no ‘alt’ key, but every key combo I try to replicate ‘shift/alt cursor up/down’ does nothing to switch instruments. Shift/p won’t list the instruments as playback techniques. I feel like I’m missing something really basic but can’t find it in the manual or forum. Checked the youtube videos but still can’t figure out what ‘shift/alt cursor up’ is if its not ‘shift/command or option or control’. Have I somehow set the player up so that it thinks its only bass drum and there are no other instruments?

2 - no sound playback for bass drum/untuned percussion

I think this is a separate issue, where the BBCSO percussion map has the wrong octave, but again, can’t figure it out. On my midi keyboard the note will sound when played an octave lower than where it is written. Using ‘y’ to create a note it will sound when selected but not when playing back the piece.

At first I had the BBCSO untuned perc expression map then added in the percussion map but it still didn’t sound. I’ve tried editing the perc map but I can’t somehow change the midi note or name to change octaves, and yes I tried unlocking the map. There are a couple of oddities, I couldn’t delete the expression map until I tried typing in ‘none’ but that was a guess, there is no option to clear an expression map in the drop down menu. And for the life of me can’t figure out why I can’t edit entries in the ‘drum kit note map’ in percussion maps, other than the 4 drop down menus I see below the list.

Is there another menu or place where you have to go to be able to edit midi notes for percussion maps?

On a Mac the OPT key serves as the Windows ALT key.

There must be something else going on then, shift/option cursor doesn’t switch instruments. Its like the player thinks they are only a bass drummer even though they are listed as perc with ton of instruments.
Wonder what I’m doing wrong.

are you sure you’ve got the unpitched percussion set up correctly? You need to decide which unpitched percussion instruments you are going to use and how many players are needed. To switch between instruments for the same player, you need to do an instrument change using the Galley View as in the screenshot below

To change articulations within the same instrument, you need to write a playing technique into the score, for instance for my triangle, I might want a roll which exists in the BBC libraries as seen below.

The trouble is that this “roll” technique may not be present --for instance there is no roll predefined as a p.t in Dorico for unpitched percussion. So you should create it. As there are of course no pitches in unpitched percussion, playing the notes on the MIDI keyboard directly seems to me also not to work quite as one would expect (at least I haven’t found consistency with the BBC library and there have been one or two other comments about this!) – simply enter them using “y” if necessary and use the p.t shown in the EM to switch if you want something other than the default technique.

Thanks, dko22.

Switching to galley view did show all the instruments assigned to the player. This is just using BBCSO pro template, so it was already set up. In galley view I can switch instruments and most of them do sound when written. That solves most of my problems in one way, but still leaves a couple of questions.

  1. In page view I still can’t switch instruments in the player by using ‘alt/shift cursor up/down’ which on my mac should be ‘shift/command cursor up/down’. But at least now I can switch to galley view and switch instruments that way.

  2. I still can’t edit the midi notes in the percussion map to fix the one or two instruments that don’t sound now. Most of them are working fine and its now totally usable, but there are still a couple of instruments that could be fixed in the perc map.

I can write using midi keyboard, by the way, as long as I only play middle ‘C’ on my keyboard. And there are a couple of things I realize I now have to be careful of, if you put a roll on two instruments with different dynamics (which you shouldn’t ask one percussionist to do anyways) it creates midi havoc.

But at least its now usable, so thanks for that. Dorico with VEP hosting BBCSO on a cheap pc is really killer. Dorico runs super fast and the sounds are really quite rewarding.

Glad you’re making progress! As to your questions

  1. I’m not aware there is a key shortcut to switch between instruments allocated to the same player but am happy to be contradicted. I’ve always used the Galley View – after all the player can only play one instrument at a time (well mostly at any rate… :grinning:)
  2. from the comments of others, there are probably mistakes in the percussion map though I don’t that often use unpitched percussion advanced playing techniques so haven’t really checked in detail. You’re best giving concrete examples so we can check if they are definite errors.

On a related matter, I mentioned a little earlier in the thread that the technique for a timpani roll is incorrect. Should be “buzz roll” and not just roll though as many, myself included, would be at least as likely to use a tremolo, you may not encounter that one.