Performer Echo Problem Revisited

Hi All,
I’m trying another session with the drummer. We got all of the mics assigned, talkback works and he can hear me just fine without any delay or echo. But on HIS END, there is a terrible echo that we can’t track down. We’re both on headphones. ALL OF NUENDO MONITOR SOURCES ARE OFF (Inputs & CR).
But he can’t play with the song because of the echo on his end. What can we check on his side to correct this?

We finally got rid of the echo by turning VST Connect off in the CR! :flushed: THAT makes no sense to me. But we could both hear each other, the guide track and his drums without echo by monitoring the main stereo out bus only. When we tried using VST Connect only, we still had echo. I’m confused.

Makes no sense indeed. Did you try “Check and Repair”?
Also, are you sure to not have accidently enabled track monitor (the yellow speaker item) - even though that should actually be blocked? If all else fails it would be good to have a picture of your CR.

Here’s a screen shot with 3 Control Room Windows open to see different parameters from each section. Yes, I tried check and repair. No, the track monitor was NOT ON.

Also, I’m not sure if we had an interrupted internet connection. But halfway through Take 5, I got a period of static, the wave files started to look strange and then it stopped recording altogether, even though the song was still rolling and the tracks were all still armed.

I’d start by removing those empty Cue Channels in the CR, then apply “Check and Repair”.
If your internet connection is interrupted (which it seems it was), the red sync ‘LED’ light(s) should fire.
“turning VST Connect off in the CR” - you mean the blue button in the CR VST Connect Cue Channel? That can’t be. Check if the meters (cue) in the VST Connect plugin move, this is what you send to the Performer (same as VST Connect Cue Channel meters). If this is off and Performer can hear you nevertheless, you either use another connection alongside or have inserted the VST Connect Cue plugin elsewhere - don’t, it is calling for trouble.
Start out with an empty project. Remove those superflous empty Cue Channels from the CR. Apply “Create VST Connect”. Does that work for you?

I can’t test this with my drummer until tomorrow. So, I only have a LAN connection test with my laptop. I’m not getting the glitching cursor like I did on Monday. So, that’s good. Does this setup look correct?

If this is correct, then it SHOULD just be a matter of adding 9 mono tracks for the drum mics and there shouldn’t any echo from either source.

Meanwhile, since this is the ONLY method of remote track inputs, why on earth aren’t we given the ability to LABEL INCOMING TRACKS? This seems, to me, an absolute necessity feature. What’s the logic behind its omission?

What’s the logic behind its omission?

It’s only because we want to offend you.
seriously, renaming add. audio channels is in the making.

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Okay, I did a totally stripped down session, trying as hard as I could to get EVERYTHING out of the CR.
When I had JUST the VST Connect App in the CR, I couldn’t hear anything. So I added a Stereo Monitor Source to correct that. From there on we had success. No echo on either side. The drummer could hear the song and the talkback clearly. The tracks recorded pretty much as expected. So, I think we’re finally over the hump! :smiley:

Now for some confirmation questions.

  1. Basically, you have to approach a VST Connect Session as a field recording with ONE STEREO MIC.
    So for tracking drums, everything has to be panned hard left or right to track mono sources, yes?

2.) Besides serious bleeding issues, we’ve noticed that the playback of these tracks seem resistant to panning properly. IE: Kick was recorded Left and Snare was recorded right as was Overhead Left and Overhead Right. When you solo the Overhead PLAYBACK, the Kick is hard left and the snare is hard right. That’s NOT how stereo overhead recordings should sound. So, that means that you have to RECORD the SOURCE the way you want it to sound at playback, since you’ll lose proximity options after it’s printed. Is this correct or are there, in fact other options?

  1. The Red light in the Master Track Channel is the only one that should be lit? When I tried activating all 9 synch lights on the separate channels, the App instantly crashed. But as long as I only had the Master Channel lit, It seemed to work fine.

  2. Still not sure how to actually insert a plugin. When I opened the dropdown menu, nothing happens. How do you get it actually access the location of the various plugins?

  3. Is there anybody here who knows of any BAND RECORDINGS, made using this app, that I could listen to?

I’m still trying to assess the practicality of this system vrs just doing a Skype session with the drummer recording entirely at his end on his DAW and sending me the tracks via FTP. The other idea was to try a combination of both where we do a VST Connect session with him recording from his end as well to compare the results.

I’ve done numerous projects, doing file sharing, that turned out great. But, obviously the communication flow was seriously impaired. Using Skype in conjunction with file sharing seems a significant improvement to that method. But still not the real goal, which is to run a session remotely that works and feels like a live session from the other side of the glass. VST Connect gives the other side of the glass feel, but is still pretty limited in the mechanics of session management.

So, at present, I guess I’m looking for some kind of Hybrid Remote Recording Option that fuses the strengths of multiple paradigms into a useable workflow.

Thanks a lot for your patience and help with getting me this far. Much appreciated! :sunglasses: :+1:

I wouldn’t approach it this way.
There are two distinct channels with the SE version, namely mic and instr. (plus VST Instrument). Then with the PRO version there are additional audio channels (up to 16).
What these channels represent is up to their respective input port setting. If that is a mono source, it’s a mono channel, if it’s stereo it’s stereo. For multitrack drum recording you would usually assign mono mics and then you get seperate mono tracks in Cubase/Nuendo after Get HD.
The stereo mix that is recorded in realtime is controled by the items in the RECORD section of the VST Connect plugin (gain, pan, and whether you want to record fx applied on the Performer end).
“bleeding issues”…there are none just as with a regular multitrack recording. As for 2.) it looks to me that you got it all wrong. Check the website mentioned, briefly repeated: what you hear and record while recording in the Studio is the mix of the RECORD section. Single tracks will be created for each seperate channel that has been record enabled in said section when you apply “Get HD Files” automatically, and provided you used mono sources for each drum mic in the Performer mixer, you will get exactly what you would have gotten if you recorded your drummer next door.
“The Red light in the Master Track Channel is the only one that should be lit?” No, if you want to do multi track recording you will have to enable each channel that you want to record separately. Read the manual.
“How do you get it actually access the location of the various plugins?” Open settings/plugins in the Performer UI and select folders for VST 2 plugins and/or enable VST 3 plugins. You should explore the software, and

I don’t see the window that accesses the plugins. Am I on the wrong page?

I set up 9 MONO tracks in Nuendo to route the drum inputs from VST Pro. You’re saying that I shouldn’t have panned the VST panner hard left or right to record to mono? I should have just left them center?

Yes you are on the wrong page. Performer plugins are handled in the Performer app.

The MONITORING section faders are just remote controls for the Performer mixer. Nothing in this section has any outcome in the Studio, only the upper “RECORD” section has - technically, those are cue sends from the Performer to Studio.
Your Performer (!) ‘MIC’ channel shows ‘stereo’ at the top, where you select the input port of the Performer (!) hardware. When this is a Mono source, for Get HD a Mono track will be created.

Make sure to understand the relationship of RECORD controls (Studio, stereo stream from Performer) and MONITORING (Performer Monitor (!) mixer remote control).

CLEARLY, I need some kind of step by step video tutorial.

Without access to my drummer (which has to be scheduled), all I’ve got is my laptop to use as a LAN connection test environment. I plugged a mic into the laptop to give me a mono source. It shows up as a low grade generic asio connection. Working entirely from the laptop (which is my performer’s side for this test), I never saw any options to insert a plugin. Can you send a screen shot of that page?

This manual is 48 pages long. I keep reading and re-reading and the Illustrations don’t have ANY direct links to the instructions! Most overview pages have labels that point to the controls OR they use a numeric system. No. 1 points to a fader. You look at the overview list and No. 1 says fader. But this manual does make any connections to the visuals. I’m not aware of a symbol for insert. Every desk or DAW I’ve ever worked on says “INS” for insert. The manual SHOULD’VE pointed to that symbol and said insert. I should not have had to find that out from you, though I appreciate the information. The link you sent in you last post didn’t work. It never went to the page you suggested. So if you could tell me where I could purchase a video tutorial or a see a comprehensive set of LABELED SCREENSHOTS, I would really appreciate it.

Also, everytime I try a LAN test the cursor gets glitchy on the VST Pro Side. I’m not sure what that’s about.

Strange that you cannot open the link. Try which has a redirection to that link.
Screenshot? “Every desk or DAW I’ve ever worked on says “INS” for insert.”, well, when the VST Connect plugin is open and you are connected, at the bottom right is the ‘INS’ tab that you asked for, showing inserts for the selected channel. I wonder how you don’t spot this.
You need to assign a port to the channels that you want to record, said so before. At the top (in your picture it says “Stereo”) of the channel, select the hardware source of the Performer (!) channel and if that is a Mono source, you will get a Mono signal. I said this all before. This is also quite similar to the routing items in Cubase channels.
A video howto is in the making.
“low grade generic asio connection” - don’t know what you mean by that. You choose the audio device in the settings and it offers installed ASIO devices just like Cubase does. Then you assign ports to your master output channel and audio input channels as described before, just like in Cubase. Just remember that these are the Performers’ channels and hardware. Tabs below those channels assing eq, comp and reverb (local to the Performer) and inserts.
Testing via local LAN connection is perfectly fine for testing and setting things up, what are you missing?

I never said that I didn’t see the section with the inserts. I said I didn’t know what the Insert Symbol meant on the actual channel. The symbol was located where you would normally find the Solo Button. The manual does not identify the parts of the channel. They only list the parts that are on it.
In any case, as you can see from my screenshot, the dropdown menu in the insert windows show NO FX. It does not offer me any option to go to my plugin folders.

Here’s what my LAN connection input options are. The single mic (external or the built in laptop mic) only offer a single input labeled "Generic Low Latency ASIO driver Stereo."

When I’m connected to my drummer it offers me a list of 18 possible stereo or mono inputs. If I were tracking from a desk or an audio interface, sending a mono source directly into Nuendo stereo channel, It would make me choose a left or right side. I THOUGHT that’s what I needed to do to print a mono track. I realize now that I didn’t need to pan the source tracks.

Meanwhile, with my reference monitors off, a totally empty project with nothing but the performer track and talkback mic, and listening on my headphones, I am getting significant latency that is mimicking an echo. How do I eliminate that?

It means enable (or bypass) inserts. With the new versions we also have tooltips so when you hover the mouse it shows that info. Furthermore, the image is similar to that of Cubase/Nuendo Inserts Bypass.

the dropdown menu in the insert windows show NO FX. It does not offer me any option to go to my plugin folders.

“your” plugins are not listed here. I keep repeating that this section mirrors the Performer Monitor and channel settings and thus only plugins on the Performer computer are listed here. Performer also needs to have plugins enabled in its settings (“Plug-in manager”).

Meanwhile, with my reference monitors off, a totally empty project with nothing but the performer track and talkback mic, and listening on my headphones, I am getting significant latency that is mimicking an echo. How do I eliminate that?

What is echoing, which signal? Does the Performer have speakers on? Make sure “Rehearsal” is off etc. Did you check the website finally?

Yes, I went to the website. I already have that video tutorial. I opened an empty project and matched the settings EXACTLY. Setting up is no longer an issue. The screen shots were simply to show you what I was seeing in LAN mode, as you said you didn’t know what I meant about the ASIO input.

The latency I described was me alone doing a LAN test in headphones.

The test recording did not reflect the delay. But making it was difficult because of it.

you are aware that when you sit next to the LAN computer you will of course get a delay? When you speak over phone to your own mobile you’ll have the same. If you listen to one machine make sure not to hear the other, and if you use your own voice you’ll hear that delayed…just like a connected friend would (but he wouldn’t hear the ‘original’ voice so no prob for him).