Perspectives

Dorico
#1

Bonjour Daniel, bonjour à toute la communauté!

Comme beaucoup de musiciens, j’ai adopté Dorico comme outil quotidien pour composer, orchestrer et réaliser des fiches pedagogiques.
J’en profite pour saluer le travail de toute l’equipe qui a forgé et fait vivre ce logiciel tant désiré depuis des année. Merci.

Dorico étant devenu indispensable a la realisation de mon travail, j’aimerais beaucoup avoir votre retour concernant plusieurs points :

  • On parle sur ce forum d’un nouveau systeme de gestion des licenses : ceux qui le souhaiteront pourront-ils conserver l’approche e-licenser le moment venu ?
    Choisir le nouveau système contraindra-t-il les utilisateurs à se connecter, à l’image des abonnements Avid ?
    Pourra-t-on activer la license hors ligne pour un ordinateur de studio que l’on ne souhaite pas connecter à internet ?

  • À propos de l’IA et de Dorico :
    Si elle venait à fonctionner comme SIRI (mise en commun…) qu’est-ce qui garantirait aux musiciens leur propriete intellectuelle ?

  • Il semble impossible de pouvoir transférer aujourd’hui une licence Dorico sur clef vers soft-elicenser.
    Bien que la question est hors propos à cause du CoVid, est-il possible de voyager avec une clef e-licenser ? Quelqu’un a-t-il déjà rencontré des difficultés à l’aéroport (sécurité, douane…) ? Faut-il préciser quelle est cette technologie si l’on la prend en baggage à main ?

  • Mon Mac Pro ne peut pas monter plus haut que High Sierra. Dans ce contexte, peut-on espérer que la prochaine mise à jour (contenant, si j’ai bien compris, des améliorations concernant l’export XML) soit encore compatible avec cette version d’OSX ?

  • Enfin, je trouve dommage que Dorico se prive d’un léger surplus d’accessibilité (labels, brail…) ce qui pourraient inciter un bon nombre de musiciens à considérer ce magnifique produit.
    Pendant ce temps, Musescore fait des merveilles et offre un export XML plus complet alors que ce projet se construit bénévolement.
    Pour l’heure, la condensation, les raccourcis clavier, l’intelligence de gravure sans oublier les cartes d’expression et plein d’autres fonctions merveilleuses font la force de Dorico.

Au plaisir de vous lire !

Cordialement,
Ch. B.

(Please sorry my poor english !) :

Hello Daniel, hello to the whole community!

Like many musicians, I have adopted Dorico as a daily tool for composing, orchestrating and producing teaching scores.
I would like to take this opportunity to salute the work of the whole team which has built and brought this much desired software to life for years. Thank you.

Because Dorico had become essential to the realization of my work, I would very much like to have your feedback concerning several points:

  • We are talking on this forum about a new license management system: will those who wish be able to keep the e-licensor approach when the time comes?
    Will choosing the new system force users to log in, like Avid subscriptions?
    Can we activate the license offline for a studio computer that we don’t want to connect to the internet?

  • About AI and Dorico:
    If it were to function as SIRI (merging, telemetry …) what would guarantee musicians their intellectual property?

  • Today it seems impossible to be able to transfer a Dorico license on a key to soft-elicenser.
    Although the question is irrelevant due to CoVid, is it possible to travel with an e-licenser key? Has anyone ever encountered difficulties at the airport (security, …)? Should we specify what this technology is if we take it in hand luggage?

  • My Mac Pro cannot go higher than High Sierra. In this context, can I hope that the next update (containing, if I understood correctly, improvements concerning XML export) will still be compatible with this version of OSX?

  • Finally, I find it unfortunate that Dorico is depriving itself of a slight surplus of accessibility (labels, brail …) which could encourage a good number of musicians to consider this magnificent product.
    Meanwhile, Musescore is doing wonders and offers a more complete XML export while this project is being built on a voluntary basis.
    For now, the condensation, keyboard shortcuts, the intelligence of engraving without forgetting the expression cards and many other wonderful functions are the strength of Dorico.

Looking forward to reading you !

Regards,
Ch. B.

2 Likes
#2

Bienvenue sur le forum, Ch. B ! Quel plaisir de lire en français, je trouve que nous ne sommes décidément pas assez nombreux chez les utilisateurs de Dorico…
J’ai voyagé avec ma clé (dongle) sans aucun problème particulier. On ne sait pas grand-chose du nouveau système de licence, sinon qu’il est attendu depuis belle lurette par les développeurs, car ils savent bien qu’en l’état, les utilisateurs en pâtissent. A priori, on ne devrait plus avoir à acheter deux licences si on veut éviter le dongle et travailler sur deux machines différentes non simultanément.

D’après ce que j’ai lu sur le forum depuis des années, il n’est pas envisagé de passer à un système d’abonnement — la majorité des utilisateurs y est opposée, et la politique de Steinberg, c’est de livrer un produit qui va fonctionner.
Seules les nouveautés et améliorations doivent inciter l’utilisateur à faire des mises à jour payantes.
Pour ce qui est de Sierra, il a été assez clairement indiqué sur le forum et ailleurs que le fautif est Qt, le canvas sur lequel est construit Dorico. La version sur laquelle Dorico 4 est bâtie ne sera pas compatible avec des systèmes plus anciens que Catalina, de mémoire.
Je ne comprends pas votre mention de labels, pour l’accessibilité. Pouvez-vous développer ? Quant à l’export XML, il a beaucoup (beaucoup !!!) évolué dans les dernières mises à jour… Mais il reste effectivement un peu de chemin à faire pour être au top.
Vous êtes le bienvenu sur le groupe des utilisateurs francophones de Dorico sur FB, si toutefois vous utilisez cette plateforme.

Cordialement,
Marc

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#3

Bonjour Marc !

Merci pour cette réponse claire et spontanée.

Oui donc en l’état, pas de procédure particulière pour prendre l’avion ; ordinateur et clef e-licenser en baggage à main, pas besoin de facture etc ?

Je me souciais de l’accessibilité de Dorico dans le cas où je voudrais aider une personne malvoyante à l’utiliser, que le logiciel lui dise vocalement à quel endroit il se trouve, ce qu’il sélectionne, un peu comme dans Musescore.

Bien compris pour le Mac.
De toute évidence tout ce dont j’ai besoin se trouve dans la version 3.5.
Ça me gêne tout de même que tous les textes ne soient pas exportés en Music XML. Je ne me souviens plus de ce qui est exporté exactement ?

Je me console en me disant que Dorico est là pour rester et que les informations exportables aujourd’hui, doublées d’un pdf et d’un fichier midi devraient pouvoir suffir à une conversion si je ne disposait plus de ce merveilleux logiciel.

Que pensez-vous d’une éventuelle centralisation de l’IA de Dorico et un risque pour la propriété intellectuelle ou rassurons-nous, il ne s’agit que d’un module interne au logiciel pour éviter les collisions et cie. ?

Je vous remercie pour votre message.

Cordialement,
Ch. B.

1 Like
#4

Cher Ch. B,
Je crois que l’amélioration de l’accessibilité est dans les plans mais pas nécessairement à court terme. L’équipe de développement de Dorico est assez petite (une quinzaine de personnes je crois), et les priorités sont décidées en interne par Daniel Spreadbury, lui-seul pourra dire où ça en est.
Je pense pouvoir dire sans me tromper que Dorico ne fait pas appel à de l’intelligence artificielle (qui pourrait, par exemple, apprendre de nos modifications manuelles sur les liaisons la meilleure forme à donner automatiquement en fonction des situations) mais simplement à des algorithmes beaucoup plus évolués que ceux des logiciels classiques (Finale et Sibelius). Pas de danger de dérapage de ce côté-là, alors.
Pour voyager, tout le matériel informatique passe en bagage à main, est contrôlé avant d’embarquer, mais je n’ai jamais eu besoin de produire de facture. Quant au dongle, il passe pour une clé usb.
L’export xml de texte pose des problèmes car les autres logiciels n’ont pas la dimension sémantique de Dorico, le problème est alors de déterminer vers quelle “fonction” tel ou tel texte doit être attribué. C’est un problème qui a déjà été soulevé dans le forum, donc les développeurs sont au courant (et ils sont extrêmement attentifs aux retours constructifs de ce type).
J’espère avoir pu répondre aux questions accessibles à l’utilisateur que je suis, pour les autres, je laisse Daniel ou d’autres membres de l’équipe répondre plus spécifiquement !

Marc

1 Like
#5

Merci, Marc, pour ces éclaircissements !
Affaire à suivre , donc.

Bonne journée, à bientôt sur le forum !

Bien à vous,
Ch. B.

#6

Welcome to the forum, Ch. B., and thanks for your feedback. Dorico does not currently employ any kind of machine or deep learning technology, so as Marc says, to the extent that it includes artificial intelligence, it is only in the way that it uses sophisticated algorithms to determine what it should do in different musical contexts.

Regarding the licensing system, once Dorico switches over to the new licensing system, it will only use the new system and will no longer use the eLicenser. Existing versions of Dorico will continue to use the eLicenser in perpetuity, of course, but there will come a point (some years after the introduction of the new system) beyond which Steinberg will no longer support the eLicenser at all, and at that point you’ll need to have your license on a USB-eLicenser and hope that neither it nor the eLicenser Control Center fails!

As for accessibility support, this is definitely something that we are planning to improve, but it is not a trivial matter to build this support and as yet we have not managed to get this to the top of our priority list.

3 Likes
#7

Hello Mr. Spreadbury,

Thank you for your answer and these clarifications.
In any case these algorithms are formidably efficient; A great time saver!
Thank you very much for the so intuitive and elegant symbol and line editors.
It is really beautiful work and I thank you for that.

Regarding my version 3.5, the day the licensing system changes I will therefore have the choice between keeping my key or switching to the new system without being forced to buy an update that would no longer be compatible with High Sierra (Mac 2010)?
I hope I am not being redundant with my question, I want to be sure I have understood correctly.
Of course I know this will not take place tomorrow. However I like to use my equipment as long as possible and avoid unpleasant surprises (e-licenser crash nor unsupported version).

I also wish you and your team a Happy New Year !

Regards,
Ch. B.

#8

No, when the new licensing system is introduced, it will be introduced alongside a new version of the software, and existing and older versions would remain tied to the eLicenser system. So you will need to update to the latest version, whatever it may be, at that time, and that will (for Dorico at least) be a paid update.

1 Like
#9

Hi Daniel

Does this mean that older versions will at some point potentially become unusable? This has got me a little concerned, as I’ve made an effort to be diligent and keep all my past versions so that if down the line I should need to make small corrections I can open the version of the software the file was created in and be certain that nothing else will change. My experience with other software (which shall remain nameless) tells me that occasionally with new versions bugs can creep in, or there is some change of design, which causes something in the music to change, which can be very unwelcome.

Regards

Jeremy

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#10

All software becomes unusable at some point. You might conceivably keep an installed copy running, as long as you’ve got hardware to run the OS that suits them (+/- some supported virtualization software). I believe the eLicenser doesn’t require internet once configured, but I could be wrong. Then there’s code-signing certificates…

2 Likes
#11

We can’t promise to be able to support and maintain old versions of Dorico forever, I’m afraid, and there is certainly the potential for older versions to become unusable, once, for example, you can no longer run a version of the operating system that it supports, or it can no longer be licensed.

As Ben says, however, software that is already licensed should remain licensed even in some imagined distant future where it’s no longer possible to activate that software any longer because the activation servers have long been switched off. In a way, at the point at which that software becomes obsolete and the servers are switched off, you’d actually probably be better off putting your license onto a USB-eLicenser, since provided nothing happens to the physical dongle, and provided the eLicenser Control Center software still runs, the license will work “forever”.

If maintaining old versions of the software is mission critical to you, then consider making virtual machine snapshots of a minimal operating system configuration that runs the version of the software you need to maintain, so you can potentially run that virtual machine on a future computer running a totally different operating system.

A more practical approach would be to archive your work in all available formats when you “finish” it (or at least, say, when you hand it off for production), so that you have (for example) a PDF, a MusicXML file, even a MIDI file, as well as a Dorico file, so that in a reasonable worst case scenario you’ll be able to open the project in a later version of Dorico and proof if carefully, or in an apocalyptic scenario, you can open the PDF in a graphics program to edit it, or the MusicXML file in a future notation application and do a complete re-edit/re-proof cycle.

3 Likes
#12

Many thanks for the tips Daniel, which certainly provide some food for thought, and the reality check that nothing lasts forever. I will note however that it looks like Avid still support (ie enable registration and the download of updates) of Sibelius version 1, which came out in about 1998, and you can still download the complete Sibelius 4 which I think was about 2005 (happy days). I really hope Steinberg will be able to at least match that.

#13

I’m sorry, but this is certainly not standard practice and it’s absolutely absurd for Avid to allow downloads of a 15 year old product, and even sillier to hold a different company to the same odd expectation, especially a company that has such a storied history with the current development team… :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

1 Like
#14

Dear Romanos401

That seems quite a strong reaction. I was expressing a hope, not an expectation.

I’ve enough experience to know the pain and cost of going back to an old set of material to do some corrections and finding that the files won’t open properly or get messed up in a more recent version of the software. I’m annoyed with myself for not being proactive about this with early Sibelius files, which is why I want to do as much future-proofing as possible with Dorico. Daniel’s suggestions will certainly help mitigate any problems, but I think no harm is done by appealing to a company like Steinberg to be at least mindful of the issue. I understand it’s about profits, but perhaps some of us might be willing to pay for a service where old versions are maintained, if it came to that.

I’d be the last person to defend Avid, but it can’t be denied that their policy of continuing to enable all legacy versions is generous and ought to be encouraged.

#15

To answer the airport security part of your question. I’ve never had a query about the license stick, nor a problem with it. I always take it in hand luggage so I can work in the airport.

1 Like
#16

Likewise. I had problems at Edinburgh Airport with an AirTurn bluetooth (page turner) pedal, though - it transpires that a smallish device with two pressure sensors, a couple of LEDs, a power source and an antenna ticks quite a few boxes…

7 Likes
#17

Good morning all,

Thank you for your constructive feedback!

I am happy to know that it is easy to travel with the e-licenser key since it seems that some users (including me) will depend on it for a long time to come.

I had a lot of hope in the new system : why would it be technically impossible to transfer any license to it, like reactivation in a soft-elicenser?

I fully understand the abandon of old versions of the Dorico side; the updates are fortunately there for that.

However, I find it annoying that it is not possible (like Reaper) for the user to still be able to open previously purchased versions.

Ex. 3.5 works with High Sierra on my old hardware. If I buy a Surface Pro in a few years, will the update allow me to run the Dorico version 6 on my laptop and 3.5 on the other computer with the same license ?
I am unfortunately preparing to buy a full version with the new system …

I keep my fingers crossed to keep everything running as long as possible (ex. e-licenser will not let Dorico to open for any reason!)
I know this is the worst case scenerio, but it could be very annoying for anyone to be obliged to buy a new computer or / and a new license / update… just because of e-licenser.

Dorico has all the features I have dreamed of for years. It’s a fantastic interface and a superb composition environment. Once again, I am grateful for the whole team’s hard work and the spontaneous responses from Daniel Spreadbury and the community.

Thank you for your time, sorry for the inconvenience and for the translation !

Best regards,
Ch. B.

#18

We are certainly mindful of the issue, but of course it is just one of thousands of considerations that we have to take into account when planning how to spend our (and our company’s) time and money. If all goes according to plan, even after the retirement of the current licensing system it will still be possible to reactivate existing licenses through the new system, though it will require you to be able to run a newer version of the eLicenser Control Center that can both talk to the new licensing system and provide the necessary license to your existing software.

What will not be practical is for us to release new builds of old versions of products that either remove licensing altogether or are directly compatible with the new system. In many cases it is not even possible to build that software any longer without very expensive and time-consuming recreation of the original build and test environment.

However, all of this is years into the future. There’s no reason to believe that all of the versions of Dorico we have released thus far will not continue to run, certainly on Windows, for many years to come, and while there are many details still to be worked out concerning how the future new licensing system will work, it is our intention that we will not leave any of our existing customers out in the cold and completely unable to use the products they (many years ago) paid for.

1 Like
#19

@dspreadbury , are you sure there is not a word left out of that sentence that reverses what you meant to say?

4 Likes
#20

Yes, good spot.