Playback template loads Violin I instead of Violin II (and the same for all second desks)

[theodorw]

I save two (e.g. violins, bassoons) or three (flutes) or four (horns) different endpoints with different samples loaded in the player (SINE/Berlin Series), different expression maps, different names. I create a playback template where all the separate groups are listed. When I apply this playback template in a project, the second violins are loaded as first violins (and the same goes for the other second desks).

Of course, they share the same Dorico instrument (they are both e.g. Violin section player), and this seems to be the problem, as I am able to force the sounds of Violin II if I define a new instrument and make the endpoint configuration respond to this instrument (and, in turn, the playback template now doesn’t apply the Violin I to the new instrument).

But this seems cumbersome, and unnecessarily so, as e.g. the Iconica Sketch playback template assign different Violins to the two desks, and so does the “OT Berklee” template I downloaded from somewhere (probably the Steinberg Forums, but it doesn’t state who created it).

Searching for a solution I find this thread, which doesn’t end in any conclusion.

Playback template and VL I, VL II

Hi, learning Dorico now… I’ve saved a playback template and my Violin I and Violin II have two different VST instruments. I’ve saved both endpoint config (Vl1 and Vl2) and included in my playback confg. But when I click close and apply (the playback template), Violon II is picking the Violin I ‘‘presets’’. Is there a way to tell Dorico to differentiate VL1 and VL2? or Maybe I need to save a Full Strings orchestra endpoint config? I’m saving individual endpoint configs because I’m working i…

This is not about advanced setups with different libraries etc., that I see other threads here discuss. I guess there has to be some kind of logic hidden for my eyes, which is able to sort out that given two violin instruments, it might be worthwhile searching for another match somehow.

In conclusion: does anyone know how to get the second (or nth) instance of an instrument to load a second (or nth) endpoint?

(I am running version 6.0.10.6032 on a Mac M1 if it matters)

[benwiggy]

From my experience, creating multiple instruments with different characteristics should work: if you create 2 Violins in your endpoint file, then Dorico will use that data for additional instruments.

However: Dorico won’t recognise different types of the same instrument, e.g. Trumpet in Bb, C, D, etc. They are all just trumpets.

And of course Single and Section players need separate endpoints.

[theodorw]

Thank you for your prompt reply. I am afraid it doesn’t work for me. I have created three projects, one for strings, one for brass and one for woodwinds, and the same behavior surfaces again and again when I now try to create a template for the entire orchestra. It is very frustrating, having to redo the desks after the first one, with mixer settings, articulation switching, expression maps etc. But I hope that I now can use this project template instead of the endpoint templates (and note to self: never apply any playback template to this project, which I find undoes hours of work). The endpoint route seems to have met its end point.

Being a programmer in a previous life, I very much wanted the mechanisms to work. With such experience, I know full well that the problem likely is “user error”. What surprises me is that I can’t see how I go wrong.

[benwiggy]

Can you upload the document that you’re creating your Endpoints from?

[theodorw]

Sure! Very generous of you to consider looking at my files. Of course, these are not compositions or finished in any way, shape or form, but if it is of any help for any of us, it would be great.

Berlin Woodwinds playback config.dorico (1.8 . MB)
Berlin Series Strings Playback config.dorico (625.3 . KB)
Berlin Brass playback config.dorico (1.5 . MB)

[benwiggy]

The names of the two instruments need to be the same. You have an instrument called “Violin” and another called “Violin II”.

Name them both “Violin”, and let Dorico handle the numbering. Then save the endpoint.

[theodorw]

Thanks a lot, on your word I’ll take another look into that. I was quite busy last week, but hope to get around to doing it one of the days in this week.
The reason I have a custom Violin II is that I couldn’t get the endpoint to do that assignment, and this was my hack to make it work reliably for strings. But then I found the same problem with the other instruments, and I guess there is another solution than creating duplicates of four horns etc.

[theodorw]

I have been looking into this all morning today, and as I probably will have other things to do after lunch, I thought I’d report my findings thus far:
In short, my current suspicion, confirmed by a first simple test, is that you have to create an endpoint with both instruments in it. That is, even if the “Save endpoint” button is available on the VST instance, one should think of the endpoint as being concerned with the score instrument. I tested this with a small project with three flutes.

1. With what is currently my WIP default playback template, it loads three instances of the same flute when I duplicate the first solo flute.
2. I then edit each channel, so that there are three SINE instances, one for each flute, loaded with the proper patch and armed with the corresponding expression map. This is the configuration I want.
3. Loading e.g. the Iconica Sketch template gives me an HALion instance with alternating flutes (1/2/1), as there are only two flute patches.
4. Reloading my default playback template, resets my work to the initial state with three instances of Flute 1. This is the behavior I have tried to explain earlier in this thread.
5. I now make a change: In the first SINE instance, I load all three flutes. I set up the tracks for Flute 2 and 3 to use this instance, but on channels 2 and 3, reroute the audio outs, configure the expression maps etc. I now save this “Triple flute endpoint config”, and create a playback template loaded with this concatenated flutes endpoint config.
6. Loading the Iconica Sketch PB template to zero out my previous work, works as expected and described here in pt 3.
7. Now, when I apply the newly minted Triple flute PB template, I get the desired result with each flute track set up with different patches in the SINE player.

Now, this is all well and good with simple sampler instances. My SINE instance for the Violin I already has four MIDI channels (Long/Shorts, Ornaments, Dynamics, Repetitions), and my plan is to expand this when I can afford the other products (Con sordino, Solo Strings, Special Bows etc). It make sense, as far as I can see, to use one SINE instance for Vln1 and another for Vln2.

As far as I have understood the current architecture of endpoints, I will have to choose between one instance per score instrument (Vln1/Vln2 must then be defined as separate score instruments, and the same for Horns etc), or to join all Violins in one (soon enough overfull) SINE instance and have the convenience of Dorico alternating the different desks.

In conclusion: as far as I have uncovered, a single endpoint (and therefore also the VST instance) must contain both violins to have the playback template apply alternating playback instruments to more players of the same score instrument.

Is this congruent with the experience of the users of this forum?

[benwiggy]

Well, yes, if you want different samples for Violins 1 and 2, then your endpoint needs to have both of them.

I have project files from which I save endpoints, and they have multiple Dorico Players/instruments, each with its own VST instance.

E.g. I have Trumpets 1 , 2, 3, and 4. Each one has its own VST, which has a different Trumpet sample in each one. I save the Endpoint as “Trumpets”.

When that Endpoint is used in a Playback Template, any new document that has 1 Trumpet, will get the VST preset from Trumpet 1.

If I add another Trumpet, that instrument will get the VST preset for Trumpet 2.

And so on.

You can put samples for multiple Dorico instruments onto one VST, but I’d argue that is less efficient/organized.

[theodorw]

Thank you for playing ball with me, @benwiggy. From the way you express your saving of “..the Endpoint as ‘Trumpets’” I got the idea that somehow there needs to be another way of saving endpoints. A way that includes multiple VSTs. I did a new experiment:
I have been using the Big “Save Endpoint Configuration” Button inside the endpoint configuration:

This button only saves the current single instance endpoint, resulting in a playback template which doesn’t alternate between different patches for the same score instrument (e.g. “Violin” or “Horn”).

Now I tried instead the button for saving endpoints (with an arrow pointing to a kind of drawer) at the bottom of the VST list:

It never occurred to me that this button didn’t work like the two plus buttons beside it, which operate on a single / the selected VST, but indeed on the whole set of VSTs, thus including multiple instances of independent VST instances.

The endpoint thus created and included in a playback template results in the desired alternating behavior. At least I have been able to reinstatiate three flutes with the different SINE instances, and when I add a fourth flute it gets the playback of instrument of Flute 1.

I think this difference should somehow be more obvious. My immediate suggestion would be a button with three dots, opening a menu for operations on all VSTs, like the multi-instance endpoint considered here (and e.g. “purge deactivated”, but that is another toast), but surely some Steinberg UX person will have an idea and policy considerations to honour.

Another thing is documentation. Even if I have been looking around, I have not been able to find this information. Now that I know what to look for, the functionality of the buttons is actually described in the Steinberg Dorico documentation “Custom Endpoint Configuration”, except that saving “a custom endpoint configuration that includes all VST instrument or MIDI instrument plug-in instances” is required for the alternating instrument playback functionality is not made explicit.

Well, I hope I have not drowned my own intention of making this clear by writing too much. I often do, I am afraid. I hope this insight contributes a little to this forum, where I have found much help myself.

[benwiggy]

Yes, I’d agree that the Save Endpoint button is not something you easily stumble upon!

Glad you’re up and running.

[MarcLarcher]

Can you confirm that I understood it well? When creating my last Cremona quartet playback template, I noticed the second violin would only load the Guarneri one if I saved the quartet’s Endpoint with four different instances of Kontakt. If I used a multi instrument one, loading the template would load two Stradivari violins (and probably 4 different instances of Kontakt too).
Saving the Endpoint with one instance of one instrument seems to work as expected.

[benwiggy]

Without seeing the project file that you create the Endpoint from; and an example of the Playback template in action, I don’t know what to say.

But in my experience, I’ve got Instrument N to use the Nth sample for that Instrument in my Endpoint.

[theodorw]

The Iconica Sketch playback template seems to be able to add alternating flutes in a multitimbral instance, but of course, that is HALion and not Kontakt. The endpoints of the built-in playback templates don’t seem to be available for inspection, but the point remains: it should be possible to create such a multitimbral instance.

Could it be that the project you generate the endpoint from does not have an instrument assigned to the VST (or vice versa, rather)? I made that mistake in my testing, luckily I quickly realized it and got it corrected. The endpoint, of course, doesn’t know much about readable instrument / patch names, but depends on the internal id of the instrument.

[MarcLarcher]

You can easily check those files, as it is the dorico file I’ve used for the Cremona quartet playback template, where I used Thurisaz’ work and modified it (I admit I don’t remember the details, it was one ir two years ago…)
The file deminstrates the quatuor de Debussy and Crisantemi from Puccini, and the four instruments are playing. So maybe it’s a limitation with Kontakt — my playback template with Spitfire Percussion has the same problem, the multi-instrument cannot load all the sounds when the playback template is called, whereas the initial file has everything in one instance.
I know these are tiny details, but I would love to know why this is not working, as less instances would probably be less taxing on the computing power.