Playback - the green line

That’s extremely good news, Daniel. Thanks. Looking forward to this immensely :slight_smile:

I also experience strange behavior of the green line, but there is said much about that in this post …
I add a different angle of view. How-about a keyboard shortcut like > ‘go to the playhead/green line’. I need that a lot because I fix something in an other place and want to go back where the playhead is. Yes I know, that I could hit the spacebar and hit it again to stop. But I want to go the exact stop point. And it would be even cooler if I could use this shortcut while the tune is playing back. So I could “fix” the problem with the green line going out of view.

Jürg,

Are you suggesting this as an interim measure?

Surely, once the bug is fixed and the playback head anomaly is removed from the next production version, the green line will always be visible because the score will always have scrolled properly?

Or are you suggesting something that might be of greater use anyway: that such a shortcut (as ‘>’) would do two things together:

  1. stop/pause/halt playback
  2. move the caret to the playhead (ready for immediate further editing)

?

This prompts me to ask a question which I’ve wanted to ask wince this first came up and Daniel was kind enough to point me personally to some solutions: does the fact that I come to Dorico not as a trained musician (no degree, no performing experience; but 60+ years of listening and loving music) make me (and those who use Dorico in a similar way) more likely to experience it?

To put is bluntly: are most users able to compose by writing long sections of music without ever needing to hear it played back?

I play back frequently (and so provoke the behaviour) every few bars… maybe once a minute etc!

Is that relevant in view of what András says?

I also play back frequently. This essential also for proof hearing besides other situations.

I can only speak for myself, but I would guess “no performing experience” is very relevant here. Beyond the “beginner level” of learning to physically operate the instrument, any sort of “performance” involves a feedback loop of imagining what sound you want to produce, and making corrections to your actions playing the instrument (either on-the-fly in live performance, or through a lot of hard thinking and experimenting in the rehearsal room) to produce what you imagined.

IMO it doesn’t seem a big step beyond that to imagine something and write it down reasonably accurately, without continual checking through computer playback. In fact I sometimes switch off “play notes as you enter them” because the “random noises” when jumping around between different instruments in the score are more of a distraction than a help.

One of my favorite quotes (from Kodaly) is about exactly this duality: “The goal of music education is to teach you how to see with your ears, and hear with your eyes”.

The developers claim to have found a logical error which manifests itself in ways that don’t fit any obvious pattern that the user would be likely to find, and fixed it.

From my experience of software development, the only way to find out of that is a “complete” solution to the problem is to wait and see what happens after you fixed it. But Occam’s razor often applies, and “randomly occurring” problems tend to have one root cause (which can take a long time to track down!), not several.

Thanks, ReRei! That’s re-assuring and encouraging :slight_smile:.

Rob,

Thanks. Yes.

I certainly appreciate what you say about the (software) development process (having been a developer myself for several decades).

But if the bug manifests itself (only) as a result of the relationship between adding/editing bars and playing them back, it would suggest that those who cannot ‘hear with their eyes’ and so who do not often play back, will encounter it less often.

(I am certainly nowhere near able to hear notes just by looking at them. Not sure if I should even try. All advice welcome!)

Well, you can probably “hear” English text just by looking at it. Doing the same with music isn’t so hard as you might think. But it helps to start young, as with learning anything.

Rob - so you really think it’s worthwhile in the long term making the effort to hear what I see?

If it is, I’ll happily set aside time to do such training. It does seem like a huge hill to climb at my age :slight_smile:. Thanks.

Due to my experiences it is never too late to learn and children don’t learn faster than adults. It always depends on the so called talent and diligence.

Thanks to you too, ReRei! I know you are also right. I have plenty of diligence. Ear Training apps here I come…

Children have the advantage that, unless somebody tells them, they don’t decide not to even try to do something “because it’s too hard”.

There is a lot of junk on the web, but for common-practice tonal music this was made by professionals for students between the end of secondary school and the start of a university course, and it starts right from the beginning: http://dictation.ccdmd.qc.ca/presentation.php

Thanks, Rob!

Thanks, Rob!

+1
Thanks, Rob, this looks great - I have often looked for helpful online materials on ear training and music theory but most are too elementary to be useful to those of us who already have significant musical experience and reasonable skill but lack training of a more academic sort.

Beethoven did. But then his idea of composition was pretty much:

I I I I | V V V V | I I I I | V V V V |
I IV | I IV | V V V V | V V V V |
I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV |
V V | V V | V V | V V |
I | I | I | I | Oooooooooooooooooone.

So I’m not sure anybody needs to hear that on playback.

That’s not true. Beethoven is much more complex.

Well, Beethoven did end his 8th symphony with more than 50 bars of the tonic chord, but that was MEANT to be a joke - he said so himself.

But if the previous post was meant as a joke, it didn’t work for me. Watching a jazz guitarist trying to sightread the chords for the Grosse Fuge might be more fun…

I suppose the reason for my question was to get a feel for how few users (of Dorico) do (have to) employ an Edit-Listen-Edit-Listen-Edit-Listen cycle.

Otherwise more folk than apparently did would have experienced this?

I’m quite happy to be in a minority :wink: .

There are a variety of reasons to Edit-Listen.

Some may have to do with deciding between what notes to write period, some with what notes to write across a broad orchestral spectrum, and some with deciding what combinations of instruments are best employed to achieve the desired effect. For, me sometimes it is even deciding what effect among several options I want to achieve. If I play around with my concepts they become stronger, more developed concepts. Sometimes by doing this I end up going an unexpected direction, all because of experimentation.

If many are able to compose straight out their head, more power to them. I respect them. Everyone does not share their skills. Am I going to be Beethoven redivivus? No. But I want to do what I do to the best of my (finite) capabilities.

This is EXACTLY how I try to work on most projects. A few years ago (not that long ago actually) a college professor I know was advising all his students that with Finale, they should always set every instrument to piano so they could “hear the music” properly. I think that advice might have been justified in 2000. But I expect playback to be far more realistic these days.

There certainly are some techniques that the user needs to employ to help the music be easily heard; e.g. setting the stereo field properly, and maybe using a little compression to bring out inner voices. But I cannot conceive of doing an orchestration these days without realistic-sounding instruments. There are very few occasions where I need to produce a project that sounds 100% realistic (although others do have such projects, I’m sure). But I need the playback to be realistic enough to give me confidence with I am writing will sound right when played by real musicians.

My goal these days is charts that sound good the first time the band reads it, don’t waste any rehearsal time, and don’t need any revisions after the first reading. I can get pretty close to this goal with the current technology. There is still a lot of room for improvement in Dorico’s playback, but it is good enough for me to work effectively. (And I haven’t tried DP yet.)

P.S. My post about Beethoven was mostly a joke, although I consider everything between JS Bach and Tchaikovsky to be musical dark ages. My idea of torture would be to be locked in an elevator with nothing but Mozart, Vivaldi and the BeeGees. Just my opinion, of course. A lot of people like the BeeGees.