Properties behavior not consistent

I have been reading the material in the Dorico help section on properties and cannot make sense of it. I have a piece with several score layouts. I typically want to make edits and changes to only be reflected in the current layout being worked on. With Local selected in Set Local Properties the changes nevertheless appear in all layouts save one. That one is a piano/vocal score layout that I created and added later. Conversely any changes made in this particular layout that I created later do not appear in any other layouts. I am thoroughly confused and frustrated. Thank you.

It’s hard to understand what’s going on without knowing more. Which Properties? Can you supply a sample document that exhibits the problem? Is it all documents, or just this one?

It sounds like the Layout that doesn’t have the changes was created AFTER you did something.

Did you change from Global to Local changes at any point? Did you Propagate Properties?

The Local/Global properties setting only affects properties that can be local (as some properties will always apply globally, regardless of the setting for local properties). You can tell which properties are local vs global using the filters at the top of the Properties panel.

Are you perhaps referring to respelling accidentals? This isn’t affect by the property scope, respelling notes has its own restrictions. If your piano/vocal layout is technically a part layout, that might explain the difference – as respelling notes in scores works differently to parts.

All good questions and answers. Problem is I have no idea what you are talking about. I find this feature mind numbing which is certainly a function of my lack of understanding of how it works. And perhaps I am thinking about and using a feature that isn’t even what I should be using for what I want to achieve. It seems simple to me but I will try explain. I want nothing more that to be able to make changes to various layouts independent of all others, unless of course I want something to change in all layouts. I am thinking of items such as: repositioning of text, or dynamics, or rehearsal numbers, or stage directions and on and on. Stage directions are interesting in this regard. They, as you well know, are customarily put at the top of a system be it a full score or a reduced score or a piano vocal or what have you. This can sometimes mean that in a reduced score layout the direction may be above a stave for a specific instrument for instance. I am finding that if I add a stage direction in this scenario the stage direction will also appear in the instrumental part corresponding to where it was placed in the score. What I have taken to doing is going into each part that may be affected and hiding such things. This seems stupid but I don’t know what else to do. Am I thinking about this all wrong? This just seems like such a simple and routine task. At least it is one that I do constantly.

Firstly, it’s all completely manageable and will all be OK – just to get those worries out the way :slight_smile:

Secondly, it should work as you’re expecting it to: if your property scope is set to Locally, all subsequent graphic changes you make to where a text item is positioned, for example, should only take effect in the layout you’re looking at. Just note that this applies to subsequent changes, the property scope isn’t retrospective. (But if you did want it to be, because say you changed a bunch of slurs to be dashed, and realise you want them to appear dashed in all layouts – you can use propagate properties.)

Just to clarify also: when you say “repositioning”, are you meaning moving them graphically in Engrave mode, or rhythmically in Write mode? Because moving where/when things happen in time in Write mode will affect all layouts, as that’s a fundamental semantic of where that item is anchored. Moving it graphically in Engrave mode essentially sets an offset from its default, Write mode position.

For stage directions: if you wanted all parts to see these, but for them only to appear a couple of times in the score, you can use system-attached text. (It sounds like you want the opposite – for it to appear in the score and never in parts – but just for your info.)

To make text appear only in the score and never in parts, you could look at using text frames – just be aware that they’re anchored to the page, not the music, so best to do that once your casting off is fixed and bars won’t be moving to other pages etc.

Firstly you are an angel Lillie, which is I guess why you get the big bucks! Property scope is set to Locally. Question. What do you mean by subsequent vs retrospective? Are not all changes to an item by definition made subsequent to their creation? Are we not always looking back (retrospectively) to make an adjustment? I don’t understand this.

I do create text items in write mode using staff attached text. This is in all likelihood why they keep appearing where I don’t want them to. I defaulted to this method because I just found text frames to be frustratingly clumsy to use and manipulate. I generally make adjustments in Engrave mode since Write mode seems to be limited in how you can move things around. I do generally create all this stuff well after the score is looking pretty much the way it’s going to look.

One more thing, Lillie. As I mentioned in my first part of this email exchange, I created a piano vocal score layout later in my process after doing the Full Score and a Reduced Score. Anything I do in this later piano vocal score only appears there and not in any other layouts, actually just as I would like everything to behave. Can’t wrap my head around this.

I simply meant to clarify that we’re talking about the same thing when it comes to when the property scope was changed relative to the edits you’ve made to the music: only edits you’ve made after setting the property scope are affected.

As opposed to changing a bunch of properties, realising the scope was wrong that whole time, and then changing the scope – that won’t change anything about any existing properties you’ve already set.

Some notations can only be dragged to noteheads, but for these notations, you can use a different key command to move or lengthen/shorten them by the rhythmic grid, always. This includes moving dynamics along a tie chain, for example.

No, nor can I – you’ll need to share the project file itself for someone to look at the specifics (there’s only so much anyone here on the forum can read minds…)

It would be helpful if you can list some of the changes you’re making that aren’t appearing in other layouts – what are you doing, to what notes/notations, in what bar, etc. As specific as you can be :slight_smile:

So are you saying that if I at any time I changed from Local to Global, if only to see how things would be affected for instance, all subsequent changes would be Global no matter what? Even if I changed back to Local.? I am quite sure I did this.

No, it’s dynamic, hence there being a toggle. It affects the properties you change, until you next change the scope. It goes like this:

  1. Scope set to Globally

  2. Change the setting of a local property.

Result: local property is now applied globally.

  1. Change the scope to Locally.

  2. Change the setting of a different local property.

Result: second local property now applied locally only. Previous property remains applied globally, because you’ve not touched it since you changed it.

That makes perfect sense and is exactly what I am after. Just doesn’t seem to be working that way which is I am sure because of something I am doing or not understanding.

Just one more question for now as I do not want to take any more of the time you have so generously offered. What exactly is a Local property and a Global property and how do I know which is which and where do I find such information in a project? Thank you again and I will cogitate on your reply and try to get a hold of this on my own from here on out. God help me!

I refer back to what I said earlier –

You can also refer to this page in the manual:

Once again, if you want help understanding unexpected behaviour in a specific project, you need to share it. I’m happy to help, but there’s only so much that speaking in hypotheticals is going to help anyone.

Perhaps I will try to put together a few examples and send it to you, though I do not wish to take advantage of your generosity. So one final thing: if something shows as Bold in the property filter, it’s global period? Is staff attached text created with Shift X such an example? It looks that way. Thank you again.

Text you’ve input via Shift-X is a text item. That in itself isn’t a property: it’s an item.

When you select a text item, available properties are shown in the Properties panel. Each of these properties can be set for the selected item(s). (For a definition of what Properties are and do, please see the documentation.) Some might be local, some might be global. Generally yes, if the text of a property’s name is bold, it’s either a global property, or a local property that was set globally.

To see only the global properties you can set for a selected text item, use the filter at the top of the Properties panel to show only global properties. Ditto, but vice versa, for local properties.

In scores where I need to add stage directions (e.g. theater scores), I put my vocal lines at the top of the score rather than above the strings (as I might in a concert work without stage directions). That way the SHIFT+X text sits above the top vocal line in both the Conductor layout and the Piano/Vocal score.

I realize this may not be an option for your situation.

Thank you for all your replies. If I might ask, what is the difference between a property and an item? Are items always global? Is there any type of text that can be used that is local? In the properties panel I don’t see anything that would allow me to specify that the text I am entering (or moving) is only to appear in the current layout. Or in a series of layouts but not all layouts. There are any number of parameters in that panel but none that seem to apply to my situation, which can’t be all that unique. Derrek offers a solution which makes sense for that narrow situation but is not generally applicable. If I were to send you an attachment containing page 11 of my full score and page 2 of my flute/bass flute part, how would I go about doing that? This would give a good example of what I am getting at.

Items are objects on the page that you can select. Properties are attributes of those items that you can adjust… someone feel free to correct me! EDIT Eg select some text you’ve created and press Cmd-8, the lower panel should show the properties of this text.

I don’t think there’s a way to directly create layout-specific text other than using a text box in Engrave Mode. I would never do this.

I’d be using regular text (maybe system text that goes to all instruments?) and hiding/showing in layouts where you want it.

You could attach these pages as PDF maybe, if you’re not comfortable sharing the project.

Agreed, there is only so much we can do to help in the abstract.

Really @GeoAndo needs to share the project file itself, or a saved-as version that only contains a little bit of music so long as that still demonstrates the issue. There’s only so much that can be gleaned from a static image.

You can attach files in your replies here, provided you have a sufficient forum trust level.

As Daniel said above, an item is “something that exists in the music”. Like a dynamic. You can set properties (aka “settings”) on these items to change their appearance, position etc – like changing a < into “cresc…”. It’s the same thing, it serves the same purpose (makes music get louder), it just e.g. looks like a hairpin in a part, and text in score.

If you want a text item to appear in some layouts but not others, input the text item, then hide it in the layouts it shouldn’t appear in.

Thank you. I have attached the project file with Silence. In the full score layout take a look at the stage direction on page 11 at the top of the score
Into the Unknown v3.dorico (1.1 MB)
just above the Flute/Bass Flute staff:“Lights fade on Emily…”. And then bring up the Flute/Bass Flute part and note the same direction hidden. This is an example of what I find so frustrating. I had long ago already come to the solution that you suggest of entering/hiding. This just seems over the top in terms of extra work and I was hoping against hope that I was just missing something. There are myriad examples of this issue all through this score as this is primarily what I do. Thank you again for your patience with my questions.