Properties Panel – 2 req. (non-priority)

The reason that the use of slide switches in the Properties panel is not up for debate is not because it was an early decision, but rather because it is the correct and most useful way to communicate the various states that properties can have. Properties can be set or unset, which is indicated by the state of the switch, and then the value of the property is in general independent of whether or not it is set. Seeing that the switch is off and the property is disabled makes it clear that the property is not set. You can also easily unset a property, returning the item back to its default state as determined by e.g. Engraving Options, simply by clicking the switch.

That is not to say that we would not like to make further improvements to the Properties panel interface in future, because we certainly plan to (among them, making it easier to access properties by keyboard, which is effectively impossible at the moment, and where possible making the value of the property when the switch is enabled reflect the current state of the item, rather than choosing any old default), but the basic approach will not change: the switch separate from the other control or controls for the property will remain. I’m not quite so hard-line as Paul about whether or not we could make it possible to click on the text label for the property in addition to the switch to activate the property, since in general larger targets are better, but this has no bearing on the issue of whether or not there should be a switch. There should, and it will stay.

I’ve provided this explanation a number of times over the past couple of years. I expect I will be called upon to provide it again before too long…

That’s exactly my point Leo: I don’t need to know that, the software does. All I care about is that it is showing what I want, wherever that is set. If a button (say a slur) has options for auto/over/under, then I know that ‘auto’ is not overriding my settings. I still don’t see why this should be an auto on/of button followed by an over/under button.

I understand the explanation, Daniel. The trouble is I don’t understand the point of the explanation in terms of what I need using the software, and I can’t think of any other software with the same approach other than very old proprietary video software. Setting properties without this switch seems to work in Finale, Sibelius, Logic, Performer, Illustrator… I’m not dumb, but the properties panel (whilst extremely useful) feels pretty clunky.
Can you give an example of something where I need to know whether a property is set? I only go into the properties panel if something doesn’t look how I want it to and that is all I need to know.
Not being contrary, genuinely waiting for an ‘aha’ moment to get this…!

We believe that it is generally useful to know whether a property is set. You may change something in Engraving Options and then not know why that change isn’t reflected in the appearance of an individual item: being able to see that the property is set provides the explanation.

And still. I will never like this behavior. No matter what explanation is said to justify it. For me as a user it’s simply slowing my work down.
Despite of that. Thanks for the all the other good aspects of Dorico.

I’ve been reading Daniel’s incredibly patient replies to our questions for over two years now, and this is the first time I can remember seeing him say that something “isn’t up for debate.”

That alone makes a compelling case for me.

I think the “debate” boils down to the fact that some people either never do anything where the current system has an advantage, or are so well organized that they never change their mind selecting and overriding the engraving rules.

The rest of us are quite happy with the way it is :wink:

Dorico is built on using global options to ensure a consistent result, with manual interventions as required. It is fundamentally useful and important that manual adjustments are shown as distinct from the default behaviour. Firstly, it explains why that symbol is not behaving according to the defaults you’ve set up. Secondly, manual alterations won’t show in other layouts unless you’ve propagated the property.

It makes it easier to make global changes and sort out the few overrides. Otherwise, you’re back to ‘Product B’, where you have to adjust everything by hand, check it, adjust, check it, adjust…

If your workflow is being impeded by having to make lots of manual adjustments, I’d suggest you check whether you can alter the global settings to get that result without the manual work.

I, for one, find the current behavior logical and healthy because it forces me to introduce and remove local overrides consciously with a separate action. It helps to keep things neat and structured, at least in my brain that is.

I’d always favor adding more and subtler Engraving Options over changing the way the properties panel works.

All software is built on using global options…with manual interventions. None of this explains why you need two buttons, auto on/off then over/under rather than one button auto/over/under. ‘Auto’ gives you same info. As far as ‘propagation’ goes that is reinventing a wheel that goes round fine in other software. Finale auto propagates with no problem, as I can change anything that I require to be different. In terms of global settings, I have them set to deal with most cases, but there are still plenty of adjustments needed.
None of this should be taken as me hating Dorico… I’ve switched to it for everything apart from work where fiddly templates are set up that would take too long to recreate. But in my 30th year of using notation software and beta testing two apps, I have a pretty good idea of what I need to see and what i don’t. The reason tiny things like this scream at me is that Dorico is on the nose for almost everything else.

I read all of your comments and still I’m no wiser … So I’m not against those enabling toggle switches, but still hope that one day the above mentioned sentence from Daniel will come true:

I’m not quite so hard-line as Paul about whether or not we could make it possible to click on the text label for the property in addition to the switch to activate the property, since in general larger targets are better, but this has no bearing on the issue of whether or not there should be a switch. There should, and it will stay.

And in general the Dorico-Team handles normally the requested issues better than I can think of …
So I think it’s time to back off, wait and do my Zen again …

A tri-state button is in this case functionally identical to the two separate controls. However, this is only true in the case of buttons. Many of the controls in the Properties Panel are not buttons, and there aren’t tri-state equivalents for radiobuttons, combo boxes, spin boxes, text fields and other controls. So if we were to use tri-state buttons then that means we have an inconsistent UI because you would only get the property enable sliders for things that weren’t buttons.

But there’s only a need to replace one button - the override one. Could this not be visually indicated when a property is actually overridden?

An indicator only solves half of the problem. For a control that isn’t a button you still need a button to set that it’s going to be an override, and the separate control to set its value. There are two controls because you are setting two things: that an override is set and what the value of it is.

Couldn’t any control turn, say, green when you set the value of it, no matter how the value is set?
I’d love to understand where you’re coming from, so I can use it without irritation… :wink: I’m aware that you all have better things to do than to go round this (again)…

It could, but again that’s only half the problem. That’s just showing the override status. You still need to have some way of toggling whether you want the override, hence the need for a second control.

I see the logic of having the on/off control separate from the value that is set, but I don’t see why the UI requires two clicks to switch it on.

  • Click the text box or spin box, or choose one of options, to switch the property on if it is not on already. Then change the value in the box if required.
  • Click the on/off control to switch the property off.

If you want (or need) to click the on/off control to switch it on without changing anything else, you can still do that if you want.

Of course all this may be less important when we get keyboard controls for properties…

Yes that’s exactly what I meant also. The necessary two clicks so far are simply a waste of time.

Rob, the problem with your idea is that the control (be it pair of toggle buttons, spin box, edit control, whatever) would need to show some value to begin with, and that’s in general not possible at present. And if the controls were enabled to begin with, there would not be a clear indication that the property is not currently set.

I’m locking this thread now, as I feel we have provided plenty of context for the way the Properties panel works, and until we’re ready to make some of the discussed changes in future (as alluded to here), there’s really nothing to be gained by retreading this ground.