I am doing some work on a 5.1 mix project listening back on 2.0 speakers, using the downmix function in Control Room. I use SoundID for room and headphone correction.
I just did some A/B testing with a stereo export of a section and found that the 5.1 mix playback did not quite match the 2.0 export of the same section. After some troubleshooting I realise that my room correction is only being applied to the L/R going IN to control room rather than OUT, meaning that anything sent to C doesn’t get adjusted on playback. It looks to me as if the instert is applied before the downmix happens, which doesn’t quite make sense to me?
Looking at the ‘Phones’ control room output, it does seem to process the correction after it has been downmixed to stereo.
Am I misunderstanding the use of the control room downmix? How do I ensure ALL I’m hearing is being adjusted?
Thanks 
You are probably putting SoundID in the “Monitor Sources” section, up in the control room panel. That is indeed before Downmix presets are applied.
For the correction to happen after the downmix presets you must use the “Main” section for inserts, which is the lowest in the CR panel. It works in the “Phones” section because it is analogous to “Main”, ragarding signal flow.
See the image:
I’m fully with you but unfortunately the way you describe it is indeed how I have it set up. Nothing in the top section, and SoundID at the bottom.
Just noticed now, when hovering to insert an insert in the bottom section, there’s soft grey text saying ‘Pre’ - do you see the same? Not sure if it’s completely unrelated.
Hmm… I believe that refers only to the CR fader, meaning that the insert is pre-fader. But I could be wrong.
Anyways, if this is the case, I don’t think it is a problem of where the downmix is happening, cause after all Sonarworks is in fact getting a 2.0 input, right? So downmixing is happening before it, there is no other path.
So it must be a case of differences in downmix setup between your monitoring path and your printing path.
How was your 2.0 mix created? Is it a 2.0 Bus in your session that you exported?
Does this bus gets its signal from your 5.1 out and has mixconvert as the panner insert?
If so, have you checked if the Mixconvert downmixing your 5.1 main out bus is setup the same way as the CR one?
And as a sidenote, if you already have a 2.0 output bus set up, why don’t you use that as a Monitor Source whenever you want to monitor in Stereo? I think it is a better practice to just monitor your 2.0 bus if that’s what you want, cause only then you are really monitoring what you are printing. Unless of course you want to use different downmixing options, which doesn’t seem to be the case here.
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Hey, thanks for your attentive response - it is appreciated! I’ve had adventures out of the studio but now back on a multichannel job and looking at this again.
Sonarworks is definitely not receiving a downmixed stereo signal before hitting the plugin. If I solo the VO in the project, there are no readings on the sonarworks meters unless I pan it towards either L or R. I can still hear the signal come through, and the meters in the CR section are showing a stereo signal being output (I am indeed listening to a stereo downmix, as I can also hear channels only panned to the rears)
My template routing has chains for creating stereo deliverables too, which, for this project, I use to export for reviews etc - since realising this strange behaviour I’ve also been using that as my control room mix. On jobs with stereo deliverables, or even mixed deliverables that is a very easy fix.
However, in some cases this seems a bit backwards as, for instance, the animation I’m working on right now will only ever be shown in a specific dome theatre 7.1 setup and I would feel more confident in listening to the output which will be used during the mix.
And, to top it off - if this is an indication I’ve misunderstood the software or set something up incorrectly, then that would be valuable for me to understand and fix Because it does seem out of order to listen to a downmix and for sonarworks to just skip/miss four out of six channels?
I’m sorry I may miss some specifics cause it’s been a while.
But have you checked your audio routings are correct? I don’t see how Sonarworks could get a non-downmixed signal at that point in the signal chain if you select a downmix preset.
All I can think of is that your routings are messed up, so you are sending something else to control room and mistakenly listening to your main output busses directly (as in they are routed through the Outputs tab in Audio Connections instead of the Control Room tab).
Thanks - Unfortunately I am only using control room. And specifically for this kind of application.
I’m attaching a short clip of a panner and the meters of both CR and Sonarworks where you can see the behaviour. A microphone in the corner of the room accidentally also picked up the output..
I have checked with other stereo plugins and they are similarly not registering input unless audio is panned to L/R, so it’s not a SoundID issue either.
Anyone else who either recognises this behaviour, or thoughts on what might be going on?
Can you instead show the routing? I’m thinking specifically about the routing in the relevant track and bus structure plus control room (including any hardware connectivity).
And does it look the same without the plugin?
I believe there must be something funky going on with sonarworks.
I’ve found that my Dirac Plugin has issues when sitting in that spot in the CR. Everytime I open a project I must go there and change the speaker setup then change it back, otherwise it passes the channels all weird. Perhaps Sonarworks is going through the same here.
Edit: replied to Mattias by mistake, meant to reply to the thread!
The issue persists even on a mono track routed straight to the 7.1 output (which is monitored through CR) so the bus structure should not be an issue.
Attaching a screengrab from my audio connections window. Very simple setup, so don’t think that’s an issue.
Any other stereo plugin behaves the same as SoundID, so I couldn’t put the blame there even if I wanted to.
Interestingly, I just noticed if I load the stock compressor in the second insert slot, after SoundID, I can see it still receives only centre channel information from my troubleshooting pink noise track. Attaching screengrab of this as well. Looks to me like the downmix is currently happening post inserts for some maddening reason?
Hey WTF! I just checked it out and the downmix is happening post inserts here as well!
I activate a downmix preset and Dirac outputs still shows me activity in all channels, But CR meter and monitoring are downmixed!
I never noticed this cause I just monitor my 2.0 bus when I want to listen to a downmix, I guess?
Is it a bug? or is this by design and I never knew? it makes no sense to me that the downmix happen post inserts at this point.
I misunderstood you. I had more coffee and I’m seeing the same thing now.
I guess the idea probably is that you have your source signal flow through the inserts of what is essentially the CR “monitoring” path before it then gets sent to the actual monitor (speaker) path that is selected, and it’s at that point that downmix happens. Since you have four different potential targets for monitoring/speakers you can set them up to be individually adjusted using plugins in the other plugin inserts area above.
I think it sort of makes sense in that the monitoring/speakers section is where you would put room treatment and room emulation because not everything gets the same treatment. A pair of NS10s in one position would sound differently from a full–range set of big speakers and would need different B-Chain treatment.
On the other hand, if you want to for some reason address the mix for all potential destinations you would do that in the CR channel, and it might make sense to then treat the source first and downmix after. In addition to that there are probably plugins and so forth that benefit from being independent from the final monitoring/speaker selection, like sending signals out of CR and out of Nuendo.
So I think I can see the point in this.
But I am also a bit of an idiot, so, like, whatever, you know?…
Yeah you’ve got a point. I agree the best spot for Room EQ would be in the monitor section, the problem is that section is also pre-downmix, and it doesn’t make sense to downmix a corrected signal.
That’s why I started using the master section for correction, wrongly assuming it would be post, but I dont even know why anymore, since I don’t really downmix the monitoring… Small increments in useless workflow changes do creep in huh?
I guess they didn’t consider room correction when designing this?
The (kinda) good news for me is that since it doesn’t make a difference, I can go back to using Dirac in the Monitor section, where it works properly. And keep not using downmix anyways hehe.
Great thread!
I think it’s post downmix. I just sent my mono source into my 5.1 main output path which is set to source in CR, and then I selected my stereo monitoring output path. I have the Frequency plugin in both insert sections.
No downmix = signal in ch 3, center in “Main” / no signal in “monitor” section
Downmix on = signal in ch 3, center in “Main” / signal in “monitor” section L/R
Here’s a hypothetical example: Say you want to not directly adjust the mix path itself but still make yourself mix a certain way. Let’s say you want to have the experience of mixing on a laptop speaker. You only have big speakers and a pair of NS10s however so both produce far more low end and distort later than a laptop. If you now use a plugin to emulate a laptop you could place that in the “Main” section and it doesn’t change the correction you have done in your B-chain, and this way you get to always have your corrected monitoring path yet temporarily change what is feeding it. Whatever is most accurate is what you’d use to play back your laptop emulation. Or it could be something else you want to emulate or address.
And like I said earlier, I could see a situation where you would want to send out a signal pre-downmix, maybe to a client via some internet collaboration, and you want that to be whatever source you are selecting. It might make good sense to have that sent out pre-downmix so that the client can hear that no problem, while you get to adjust your own monitoring independent of that. There are other solutions to this of course.
It’d be in the monitor section, not “main”, is my guess. You would want to hear your downmixed mix in a corrected environment. The environment’s “sound” shouldn’t change based on the source channel width?
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Man WHAT THE zoinc!!
It is post downmix indeed!!!
What the hell is going on? I got all this exactly 100% backwards!
And I had just tested everything for this post, and could swear it was all as I said.
I feel like I’m going insane.
But hey! Mattias solved it:
Sonarworks should go precisely to the monitor insert section, as that is post-downmix.
I believe it will then work as expected!
Oh yeah!! Amazing… Freckin love this forum sometimes. I thought I knew how this stuff works, and here I am with further knowledge acquired, and my confusion has departed!
Checked and it does indeed work as intended.
Thanks for taking the time to check this out and to type up such in depth replies. Legends both of ya!
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