Hi.
I am writing for a recorder group. in the setup /woodwind section the lowest recorder is a bass. How can I get a sub bass to add to the flow?
Also the small recorder is missing. Garkline.
thanks.
Nigel
If the instruments aren’t in Dorico’s default list, then you’ll have to create them in Library > Instruments.
Thanks benwiggy. After 2 days I still do not have what I want, but I will keep trying. I tried to use a pre existing instrument, a contabass flute, and change it but I got into some problems with the correct octave and the change of name. But hopefully i will get it. Maybe I just need to start from scratch to create a new instrument.
Thanks for your help.
Did you manage to figure out your Garklein?
I do not have one, but thought perhaps I should add it to my Dorico instruments in case I ever need it (I hope I never need to play one, too much squealing for me, Soprano is as far as I go and mostly use my 415 if I am practicing!)
Here is what I have:
Screenshot and details of my Garklein settings
but not sure it is what you have already tried (or if it is correct—it seems to work for me, I think.)
I chose Treble clef 15 for both Score and Part (I am never sure whether I should use the 8/15 clef on any recorder part as it is obvious to the player! At the moment I have revised them and put them back in for those sizes that have them, I suspect tomorrow I will take them out again!)
For the Garklein settings, this means the score shows the notes as two octaves down also, otherwise it would be too high to make sense of it I suspect, plus take up too much vertical space with all the ledger lines.
You mention sub-bass. Sorry, I never know what that means. Are you referring to contra or sub-contra or sub-Great? Or simply Great bass (did you create a Great Bass instrument then? as I think I needed to add that as an instrument also—I have a Paetzold Great bass.)
I seem to remember I had to revise the recorder instruments so they worked for me.
FYI I use NotePerformer for playback as you already might do, as it accommodates the various sizes (not sure how low it goes for any large sizes!) and sounds like recorders through the common sizes enough for reference.
Hi arco.
Thanks for your reply and information.
I have been a pro Piccolo and flute player for some 60 years and also a pro sax player for about 30 years.
I just recently started to watch some recorder videos and I have joind a recorder group to try to get an understand and to try something new. At 73 yers old it is never to late to learn something.
I think the recorder is an instrument that is trying to find an identity.
Am I playing a descant or and I playing a soprano?
Am I playing a treble or am I playing an Alto?
Am I playing a bass or a bassinet? Last week I was told that all bass recorders should now be called a bassinet.
Am I playing a great bass or a contra bass?
I was told that the bass recorder is written in Bass clef but sound an octave higher than written.
The great bass is written at pitch. I need someone who plays these instrumenst to confirm this for me.
As a piccolo player I am wondering why the Bass recorder is not written in treble clef. The notes written would look like an Alto part and the instrument would transpose down an octave. This would make things musch easier for someone who occasionaly plays a bass or would just like to have a go without learning the bass clef. Also for school students who could swap from alto to bass very quickly.
In the brass band world every instrument is written in Treble clef even down to the double Bb tuba. So any player can change instruments with just slight embourchure adjustments. The music stays the same and the fingering of the instrument stays the same.
The same sytem applies to the saxophone family and also to the Bb and Bass clarinet.
I am now considering adding alternative bass recorder parts to my music in Bass and Treble clef.
So do you have any advice how I can create a great bass part to Dorico instrumentation?
I would love to add one to my latest composition.
Thanks.
This is what I’ve been doing with recorders today…
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Hello,
Thank you for your background, it helps frame my reply.
Nice to meet you 
This is my “take” on all this, with references you can follow up (I won’t mention the rabbit-hole you are probably already aware you are in!)
… trying to find an identity?
Historical - as you would already know, the recorder goes hundreds of years back to about 1400, and evolved in all the various countries with different translations of its names and sizes, with the different makers throughout the centuries. With illiteracy, limited communication and travel, (semaphore, morse, pigeon tags, phone, internet, airplanes yet to be invented) it is not surprising our problems with a universal “name” for each model of recorder.
Aside: recorder developments continue to evolve with modern makers studying originals from the various museum instruments or drawings available, copying, tweaking (for example Vincent Bernolin’s Historical reenactment program), the use of high definition scanning, 3D printing (resins, wood-based resins) to the development of the “modern alto” (yes, that’s its name, at least for now.)
A good example if you are interested, is the name “voice flute” with apparently a very convoluted historical background of its “name” as outlined by Sarah Jeffery.
Nomenclature
Helen Hooker has this chart
You might like to read the article it came from.
Her website for recorder information
“Sub-bass”
If I know it is an experienced or professional recorder player referring to the “sub-bass” I assume it is the Contrabass, but sometimes someone will say “sub-bass” using “sub” meaning there is a “sub” in its name … and “bass” meaning one of the bass recorder models—so sometimes I am not sure (maybe it is just me!) Perhaps adding “in F” or ”in C” helps because then you might be able to determine which is being referred to. As you see, there are a number of “sub” named models.
Clefs, transpositions
From another of Helen Hooker’s articles
“Bass recorders” are a group of the lower pitched ones (generally bigger in size), with the smallest of the bass sizes often called the “Basset” recorder as you found out, it having a cute name all of its own.
All bass recorders are generally (!) notated with bass clef (with various octave transposing)
Basset is notated in treble or bass clef, Sarah’s explanation but her definitive preference is the bass clef.
Transpose according to octave
Sarah: all models, written vs sounding pitch. This should answer your questions
I see Sarah’s summary sheet shows the Great bass as non-transposing (octave) (which leads to ledger lines) then buried in the discussion below, she admits it is incorrect.
Dorico
If you are only notating for yourself, then go ahead with treble clef. Listeners will only care about the aural, not how you cognitively got it to there. You are not alone as you already know for the reasons you outline.
Dorico alternative instruments
As you know, the definition of a single instrument has a setting for which clef in the score, another setting for the clef in the part, so you can create two (or more) alternatives of that instrument and assign them to whichever layout you want to create (see below.)
For the bass “recorder instruments” as you have already decided, have one with bass clefs (part and score), another with treble for the part instead.
Related threads from this forum
Instrument definitions for recorders
How to create custom instruments (recorder)
Dorico layouts
Dorico allows you to have different layouts (you might already know this) where you can choose different instrument selections for the same piece (meaning your different instrument alternatives, depending on clef preferences.) You might like to provide different alternatives for score and parts, so no player is embarrassed, they can select whichever they prefer and you won’t have some struggling at a rehearsal/performance because they are attempting to read from the “wrong” clef. Just copy/paste to the alternate instrument and set up your layouts.
For the score, clefs used might depend on the conductor it is destined for (a recorder player as conductor, might only know treble clef, so could prefer everything in treble, perhaps with the appropriate 8 or 15 … (22, 29, 36, haha!) designation below the clef.
Aside: Dorico has 8 and 15 in the instrument definition options, but there are others in Dorico’s Bravura font. Perhaps treble clef 22 below would work for alto players playing a sub-contra?
You will find information on Dorico layouts with any kind of search, our Dorico user manual, videos, or threads here.
Bass clarinet
You mention bass clarinet (I play one). If you look at Dorico’s bass clarinets options, there are actually six. From (my) memory, some German scores have bass clef for the part? and scores can be in bass clef.
If I am notating a bass clarinet part for my own purposes, I always have it in bass clef, it just makes more sense to me that way.
Aside: it’s also nice to play/attempt the Bach cello suites from a cello part (although I have always wondered about the possibility of using multiphonics for the double and quad stops! I’m not that good to attempt it!)
Great bass Dorico instrument
Lowest note sounding C3, written C2.
with part and score octave transpose, bass clef (8 above.)
Normally I would use the standard bass clef (no 8 above) for the part.
There are two factors at play so to speak here, how you might like to input the GB notes, at pitch or transposed octave, treble clef etc; then how you want to export the score for the conductor (which might be different).
Personally if my recorders are playing “chords” together, given the small range needed for this, for Great Bass I normally set the instrument at pitch (non-transposing octave) in the concert score, as I usually build up from there as that is my note foundation at pitch; whereas for contrapuntal lines I might set it as bass clef 8 above (octave transpose) for inputting as I am more likely to go up further in the range.
Another link you might like Arranging for recorder (Sarah again) (if you have not found it already)
Brass instrument clefs you mentioned.
There are different brass instrument conventions for clef depending on whether it is brass band or orchestral, right?
(I think I have all the above as I intend it to say, without any mistakes, I might have to come back and edit something!)
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Hi. Many thanks for all the helpful and interesting comments.
Sorry for the delay in responding, I have been away for a few days.
Last week I was very lucky to meet a guy who played the Bass and Great bass recorders and he was able to show me the instruments.
So what he told me is that the Bass recorder and Great Bass recorders are written and played the same way. They both use the Bass clef and they both sound an octave higher than written.
The difference is that the great bass is known as a C instrument which means that the lowest note is C and the Bass is known as an F instrument so the lowest note is an F.
This also means that the Bass is played like a Sopranino and Treble , and the Great Bass is played like a Soprano and Tenor. So the Great Bass has 5 notes lower than the Bass. These are known as the golden notes because you pay a lot of money just to get these extra 5 notes.
They are both written in Bass clef but I was told that this guy sometimes writes the parts in treble clef to make it easier for the players who are not so fluent in playing in the Bass clef.
So I am going to write 2 bass parts and when I print thm out I will rename the 2nd Bass to Great bass.
It would be great if I could create a special instrument called Great Bass that I can pick when using the setup to create my scores, but I don’t know how to do that.
Going back to the Bass clarinet. A good friend of mine is a clarinet player in the BBC symphony orchestra. He confirmed that sometime Bass clarinet parts are written in Bass clef but this is unusual. He also said that in some scores the composer follows what is happening in the Soprano Bb and A clarinets and writes for bass clarinets in Bb and in A. Bass clarinets in A are very rare so the bass player will transpose the A part onto a Bb bass instrument.
I have only ever played a bass clarinet in musical shows and wind bands so I have never met a bass clarinet part in Bass clef. but i have played Bassoon parts on the Bass…
Many thanks.
Take Care.
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Fits right with the superb Robert Plant appearance on Stephen Colbert recently… guy still got it!
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Indeed , for example Richard Strauss did this. In “Der Rosenkavalier” the bass clarinet part (doubling basset horn) is written in bass clef (Bb and A) and the basset horn is written in treble clef.
Also Richard Wagner: In “Tristan und Isolde” and “Der Ring des Nibelungen” there is bass clarinet in Bb and A in bass clef.
Today nobody does that, though.