Setting input levels when recording guitars or vocals - do it on the interface, in Cubase or both?

[Knopf]

@nksoloproject

I also checked the pool, and it seems that my files are actually 32 bit float despite my audio interface being 24 bit

I am not sure, but I would bet that you have 32 bit audio files where 8 bits are simply without information, that is there is information given by just 24 bit. I would recomend you change the setting of your project and in the future you record and do your mixing work with 24 bit files.

@nksoloproject

I set all the channel faders to ‘unity gain’, i.e. 0 on the fader scale (I presume I need to do this when gain staging parts which have already been recorded, and not only when setting input levels at the beginning?).

I think so.

@nksoloproject

I set the global meter position to ‘Post-Fader’ (I tried ‘Input’ at first, but nothing happened to the meter levels when I moved the faders, the PRE gain control or the output of the VSTs, so can I presume ‘Post-Fader’ is the correct setting?). I did not try the ‘Post-Panner’ setting.

Yes you can work this way. At input is when you record, but I think, if at recording the pre gain and fader are set at 0, it should not affect.

@nksoloproject

I then went through every track (with the Inserts and Send effects switched off) and I reduced either the PRE gain or the VST output level until every track looked roughly -18dbfs by eye (using the colour coded meter settings like Chris Selim suggests). Some tracks peaked a little bit higher than -18dbfs, maybe around -16dbfs. Is this ok or could I go higher, like have the peak levels up to -6dbfs?

so far you are between -18 and -12 or -10 it should be OK. Remember that is a rough starting point. The goal is that you have good levels to work, but without burning the master.

@nksoloproject

I then switched on the Insert and Send effects to check the levels of each track with these on. The highest peak level for any track was around -11.9dbfs with these on.

do not swith on your inserts before you are ready with the static mix. Maybe exceptions could be guitars where you use amp emulation and want that this sound it is kind of the “original” sound.

@nksoloproject

All the instruments are now out of balance with each other in the mix (the drums, coming from Groove Agent SE, are WAY quieter than everything else since I turned down the output of Groove Agent to get the correct gain level. So presumably I when mixing I will need to turn all the other instrument faders down to match the drums. This will result in the channel levels being way lower than -18dbfs, hopefully this will be ok ).

That is absolutely expected. Gain stagin is not intended to balance (see above). Your first rough balance you do with the static (rough) mix, without plugins. If after the static mix a level is far from -18, so be it, you don’t care about that. Gain staging is already history.

The levels are now at the service of the mix. What the gain staging gave you is that you are standing on a good starting point where your signals are robust and you don’t burn the master.

@nksoloproject

When I change the global meter settings back to ‘Input’, the levels on the meters are still the same as previously, i.e. before I gain staged them. I thought these were supposed to change? But they only change when I have the global meter settings on ‘Post-Fader’.

If you change them to input they are not taking into acount the fader position. That is not wanted in the mixing stage.

@nksoloproject

Back in ‘Post-Fader’ mode - when I move the channel faders up or down to sort out the balance between all the instruments, the input levels on the channel meters also change. This makes it confusing to know whether I’m still in the correct range, i.e. around -18dbfs. So what am I changing here? I thought that by moving the PRE gain, that is how I adjust the input levels to keep them in the range of around '-18dbfs. So when I move the channel faders, am I altering the actual input level or just the output of each channel? In either case, the channel meter levels change.

do not care anymore about those levels when you are mixing. Gain staging and their -18 dB are history now.

and specific to

@nksoloproject

So when I move the channel faders, am I altering the actual input level or just the output of each channel?

with the faders you modify what goes out of your channel, not the input signal.

@nksoloproject

Ok yes, I am reading Knopf’s advice again. So now I must go to the static mix stage. I noticed that the drums, coming from Groove Agent SE, are WAY quieter than everything else since I turned down the output of Groove Agent to get the correct gain level range. So presumably when I do the static mix I will need to start by turning all the other instrument faders down to match the drums first (I don’t think it will work to turn the other instrument faders up as they’re already at unity gain, so not enough room to move them up much further).

Some people begin with drums and bring down the faders of all other instruments first (not the pre gain!). Once they are happy with the drums, they add bass, and so on. Different people work different ways. I highly recomend you visit the Mix Together series froms the channel Home Studio Corner I listed above.

[nksoloproject]

Ok, it seems like I’m on the right track now (no pun intended!). The thing about turning everything down is that it makes the entire mix sound quiet through my studio headphones. I’ve turned the headphone output on my interface up full, but it’s still obviously a lot quieter than I’m use. Maybe I’ll have to mix on monitor speakers instead and just turn them up a lot more to compensate for all the channels being turned down a lot. I can imagine when recording vocals, for example, it could be very hard to hear your vocals coming through the headphones even with the interface output turned up full because of the input volume being so low. Is this normal?

Do group and effects channels need to be gained staged also? I have 13 tracks of backing vocals going to a group channel…I’ve gained staged each individual backing vocal track, however the group channel they’re routed to looks a bit ‘hot’. On the effects channels, I have reverb and stereo delay, so I’m wondering if these need to be gained staged too.

[Knopf]

@nksoloproject

it could be very hard to hear your vocals coming through the headphones even with the interface output turned up full because of the input volume being so low. Is this normal?

I don’t follow your question very well.
For mixing try to use a volume that is high enough to hear details but low enough to be able to have a conversation.
Some like to put a limiter on the master bus with a ceiling of -1 dB, aiming to just a tinny couple of dB gain reduction on the limiter. In different stages of the mix you must verify the limiter again, watching that is not acting too hard. That is only to be able to hear your mix with a similar volume that it will have when is finished and mastered. But don’t forget to turn the limiter off before doing the mixdown, as the mastering engineer (someone else or yourself) should get a mixdown that still has some room -several dB- to work.

By the way, if at recording a volume of an important instrument for the “artist” is playing too low, you can use cue mixes. I am not sure if cue mixes are part only of the pro version. But you can save mix consoles too, as a workaround.

@nksoloproject

Do group and effects channels need to be gained staged also? I have 13 tracks of backing vocals going to a group channel…I’ve gained staged each individual backing vocal track, however the group channel they’re routed to looks a bit ‘hot’. On the effects channels, I have reverb and stereo delay, so I’m wondering if these need to be gained staged too.

I don’t know. I think it would be too much. And don’t forget that sending and FX belongs to the mix work. You don’t do gain staging anymore there. Always remember: it is a rough starting point, don’t freak out about it. Regarding your backing vocals, I don’t know, as I am not expert, but I would see if some pre gain in the channel can help or simply move the fader a little and end of the story.

If you check the Mix Together series you will notice Joe doesn’t do gain staging at all. He has good files to work, more or less with right levels (maybe some of them at -10, others at -15, and so on), and ready, end of the story. He moves on and starts the static mix, after he has carefully verified and fixed phase issues.

[nksoloproject]

Knopf
I don’t follow your question very well.

What I mean is, if I am recording vocals etc at a lower input gain than previously (when I used to record everything too ‘hot’), it’s going to sound quieter through my headphones - at least that was my thinking. I tried a test recording of some vocals on one of the tracks I’d gained staged by reducing the PRE gain, and the vocals were coming through my headphones very quiet.

However I did another test recording on a fresh track, with no PRE gain reduction, but simply using the input gain control on my interface to set the vocal level to about -18dbfs on the Cubase Mix Console and the level I was hearing through my headphones was fine. I think it’s just a case of me getting used to working this way.