Several midi channels on one instrument track?

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

I’m trying to figure out something, but can’t manage yet:

Can I use several MIDI Channels in one instrument track, like on a midi track ?
(The reason for this is, I want to make a Track Preset with multiple sounds in a multitimbral instrument saved within it. I know I can load the instrument in the VST Instrument panel, and setup MIDI Tracks to it. But the Multi Track Preset then doesn’t save the sounds. I seperately have to save the sounds in the Instrument.)

For example, I have set up one instrument track for a multitimbral instrument like Halion Sonic.
In Halion Sonic, I load several sounds on several MIDI Channels.
In Key Editor, in the Info line above, I can assign MIDI Channel numbers to individual notes.
But the sound always goes to channel number one !

To compare:
In a MIDI Track I can handle this by setting the MIDI Channel of the Track to “Any” in the Inspector.

I hope this is possible with instrument tracks too, then I can make a Track Preset with several sounds out of one loaded multitimbral VST Instrument.

Also: is it possible to assign MIDI Channel numbers to MIDI Parts as a whole ? (setting the MIDI Track Channel to “any”)
I remember this doing in earlier Cubase versions, but can’t find it yet.

thinkingcap · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

No.

No but to single events via the info line.

system · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

Practically I would also say no too.
But it can be done in a very, very limited extend.

But before I explain, you do know using the VSTi Instrument panel (F11) with MIDI channels is the way to go for multitimbral VSTi’s? It will give you way better control and you can use the multiple audio output channels of a VSTi.

That said, back to the question.

You can use the “Input Transformer” as MIDI insert for this (not the tracks Input Transformer).
When you set it up like this for instance:

Filter:
Type = Equal = Note
And
Pitch = Inside Range = C4 to C5

Action:
Channel = Set Fixed Value = 2

This way all notes within the range of C4 to C5 will be played on MIDI channel 2.
BIG downside is, you only have 4 MIDI inserts. So in fact you can only filter 4 single notes/ranges/controllers.
Unless you have a very specific reason, I would always go for the VST Instument panel with seperate MIDI tracks, without a doubt.

I was too under the impression you can assign a MIDI channel to part. But it seems not possible, only events.

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

Thanks for the answers, I appreciate !

Sure !

Well, my reason is, I am trying to find the best way to save a Track Preset with multiple instrument sounds included.
Now, I handle two methods, both not very efficient, I thought:

I use the VST Instruments Panel.
Then, I can only save a Multi Track Preset for the MIDI Tracks. The MIDI Tracks then output to the Instrument with saved channel numbers, but no sound information. I seperately have to save the sounds in the Instrument.
I set up several Instrument Tracks, with on each Track the multitimbral Plugin, loaded with only one sound (on channel one). This seemed to me no efficient use of RAM and CPU, and not so elegant.

Input Transformer:
Didn’t try yet, but I don’t see why the channels in the Instrument Track then should play different sounds in the multitimbral VST Instrument, while individual notes set manually don’t?

system · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

I’m afraid you ran in to the limitation of the instrument tracks at its current state in 6.5.

Strangely enough, the Input Transformer does the job, where individual MIDI notes tied to channels, don’t have the expected behaviour.
But I don’t think it is a solution for what you want to achieve, due to it’s limitation of 4 MIDI inserts.
For keyboard splits or a simple drum kit it’s handy.

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

Ok.
No, it’s not directly what I’m trying to achieve.
So, I’m stuck with the two workarounds mentioned.
In Cubase 7 it’s still the same, by the way.
Anyway, thanks a lot!

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:26pm

But, when the assigning of MIDI Channels to notes does work by means of the Input Transformer, it seems to me that the disfunctioning in Key Editor it is not a limitation of Instrument Tracks in general, is it?

Ain’t this a bug or overseen programming issue, that should be reported (and possibly can be fixed in future versions)?

ganglia · December 21, 2020, 2:27pm

It will happen soon enough, there have been ad-hoc statements to this effect so it’s only a matter of time.

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:27pm

Hi Niles,
I tried this out, but doesn’t funtion here on an Instrument Track; all sounds still keep coming from Channel 1.
It does function on a MIDI Track, assigned to a VSTi in the Panel.
It’s an educational experience, however!

| Cubase 7.0.1 64 bits; Cubase 6.5.4 64 bits | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bits | 16 GB RAM | i5 3.3 GHz processor| SSD 256 GB | Steinberg MR816x | Steinberg Midex 8 | Motu Midi Express 128 |

system · December 21, 2020, 2:27pm

That’s strange because here it works as described.
But I see I said “Input Transformer” as a MIDI insert, that’s misleading, I meant “Transformer” as a MIDI insert.
This is really important because this is the only way to do it. The tracks Global or Local “Input Transformer” won’t work.

But maybe I have an even much easier and flexible workaround for you.
Use expression maps. This way you can send every note to a MIDI channel you want, from the key editor.

Just create an expression map with 16 slots, set the output mapping of every slot to a MIDI channel e.g. 1 to 16, create 16 articulations with name like "channel 1, channel 2 etc. and tie those to every corresponding slot.
When you attach the map to the instrument channel, you can select the MIDI channel per note.

I tried it with 3 channels and it works. If it works in real practice, you should try.

In the Key editor on a MIDI channel it works as expected when you set you channel’s MIDI output to “Any”. An Instrument track’s MIDI output can’t be set to “Any”. I think that’s the problem.

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:27pm

Yes, I was using Input Tranformer.
Now I tried the Tranformer MIDI insert (never used before, I like this learning curve! ).
But this only has one Module, while Input Tranformer has 4 ?
I manage to make one Channel change there within a range. Nice, but not what I was searching for.

I tried this too. Indeed this works: in Key Editor’s Articulations I can select the MIDI channel per note, but still only monotimbral? I can’t make several notes playing at one time going to several MIDI Channels. However, very interesting and probably usable sometimes.

Indeed, I begin to think Instrument Track is intended to be always monotimbral.

system · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

True, but you have 4 inserts (still limited though).

Hmmm, that’s strange. Here it works flawlessly, I can even send two overlapping notes with different articulations to separate MIDI channels.
Are you sure you’ve set it up correctly?

I’ve attached an expression map. When you rename the extension from .txt to .expressionmap and drop it in your expression maps folder you can attach it to the instrument track in Cubase. When you select a (few) note(s) and choose the channel you want them to be sent to by selecting it in via the “Articulation” menu on the key editor’s info line. Those note’s will be sent to the corresponding MIDI channel.

Downside of this method is, you can’t send the controller data to a separate channel.
But like they say in Dutch: Je kan niet alles hebben
MIDI Channel Split.txt (46.8 KB)

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

Hey, that’s functioning!! Thanks a lot, I appreciate!

(I had made an Expression Map with Articulation Types ‘Direction’ instead of ‘Attribute’. In the Articulation Submenu in the Infoline in Key Edtior there was only ‘none’ then. So I tried to set the Channel, but that didn’t function.)

So now multitimbral playback is functioning, I try to play along and record another sound, by means of remote keys.
Can’t manage yet, but keep searching… I have made some remote keys in your Map now.
The little green arrow to the left to the remote key seems to indicate the corresponding incoming sound, and to the right the playing notes. But the incoming arrow flips to the outcoming position and the corresponding sound, hmm…

(Je kan niet alles hebben, maar liefst wel natuurlijk! )

ganglia · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

The problem here is editing of MIDI data on separate tracks is cumbersome and doesn’t facilitate editing of data on multiple channels.

system · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

Try turning on “Latch” in the Expression Map setup. This way it’ll stick to the sound slot until another remote key is pressed.

There is no problem, we know the common method. We are just figuring out alternatives.
The biggest risk of workin ITB is you start to think ITB

ganglia · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

I want multi-timbral/multi-output VST’s, I just find it funny that it has been discussed (even by SB) since I think V4, when VST Instrument tracks first hit the scene.

I believe we will get them if we keep putting use cases forward and what I suggest should happen first is the Key Editor should facilitate multiple channels in the one part in a manner akin to how separate MIDI tracks are currently (not 7.0.1 ) are edited.

system · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

Agree.
But my point is, we don’t debate the lack of multi-timbral instrument tracks here. We’re trying to achieve something with the tools that ARE there.

I’m sure that would be nice for some.
But as long as it isn’t there, it looks like the best alternative for an Instrument Track is the use of the Expression Maps together with Lanes, to keep it visually clear.

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

It was enabled, but while playing one sound, the input slot flips to the output slot as soon as a note, assigned to another channel/articulation, plays back.
(With Latch disabled, the input slot flips to channel 1 as soon as the remote key is released.)
I keep on trying!

Indeed by using Lanes, selecting all notes in a Part and assigning them to one Channel/Articulation, the multitimbral playback functions okay now. Wonderful! But how to record a new lane while playing another channel/sound, I have not figured out…

| Cubase 7.0.1 64 bits; Cubase 6.5.4 64 bits | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bits | 16 GB RAM | i5 3.3 GHz processor| SSD 256 GB | Steinberg MR816x | Steinberg Midex 8 | Motu Midi Express 128 | much hardware

system · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

Here it works when recording (not when playing along without recording). It looks like the existing expression is somehow overruled when recording.

But at the end, I think for extensive MIDI playing and all its capabilities, this method will cost you more time then using the VST Instruments panel and loading a .vmx files for the audio buses of the VSTi and a preset for the VSTi itself.

Anthonie · December 21, 2020, 2:28pm

Ah, so it is possible!
But here it doesn’t work in record nor play:
when I set the sound with the remote key before starting record, it flips to the previous recorded sound (with manual set channel), as soon as that notes start playing;
when I set the sound by the remote key after starting record, the previous sound flips to the new one and the channel settings are overwritten…
Still somewhere a hidden setting maybe?

Yes, I think you’re right!
Anyhow, I’m learning a lot about the possibilities and limitations this way!

Several midi channels on one instrument track?

You can use the “Input Transformer” as MIDI insert for this (not the tracks Input Transformer). When you set it up like this for instance:

Action: Channel = Set Fixed Value = 2

You can use the “Input Transformer” as MIDI insert for this (not the tracks Input Transformer).
When you set it up like this for instance:

Action:
Channel = Set Fixed Value = 2