I’d strongly tempted to go for the new Cubase 14, at least the free trial version. But I have a question for people who use both Dorico Pro and Cubase (whatever edition).
I’ve never used a DAW. I’ve never even watched someone use one. I don’t think I actually know what a DAW is! (Ok, I know the usual definitions. I mean I don’t know what they are in real life.)
When I compose, I see the notation in my head, and then I put it from my head into Dorico. But when I play it back, it never matches what my head heard in the first place. Not even using Note Performer, which does come close at times, but not always. And I’m pretty sure my head is right and the software is not.
I’m a slow learner, especially when it comes to technology. So my question is this: Is learning Cubase (or any DAW) worth the effort? I’m pretty sure there’s no way of answering that to my own satisfaction during the 60 day trial period, unless I spent every waking moment working on it. So I’m appealing to those of you use Cubase and who are and have been notation-first and sound later: Was it worth it to learn the DAW? Just in terms of better playback? Or would it in your opinion be an unnecessary waste of energy and time compared to just getting on with the work?
Why not purchase Cubase Elements, start with a very small project of a few instruments (like a string quartet, or whatever), then you can get an idea of what it does and how it functions.
The Play section of Dorico can look and function in a similar way to a DAW, so if you are familiar with this mode in Dorico, then you will at least not feel daunted by a DAW.
A DAW can be a can of worms, endlessly trying to find that sample library which matches what you hear, the mixer section, faders, reverb, various plugins add effects, EQ (equalisation) etc. to each instrument but you can spend a lot of time doing this, hopefully with great results, perhaps many times, without much progress.
Just a thought, you might like to think about what exactly is the difference in the way you hear what you want, and the notation process of inputting it, then how it sounds. This may vary depending on what you are composing or its genre or purpose or emotion you are wanting to convey.
In a DAW you have many options to help it sound better (whatever that means to you) but in having so many options, it may take endless time to get there.
Another thought, if you are reasonably certain your notation should sound better than it does, it might be a mixing process that is needed. If you find someone with mixing experience, export the stems of the piece and watch/listen to what they mix, answer their questions, suggest … and see if it is the mixing process which gets you closer (a DAW has many mixer options) … or if it might be your notation itself that is somehow lacking (or instrumentation etc.) so you can then work on whatever it is that brings it closer to what you want.
Then if it is working for you, wait for a discount upgrade to Cubase Pro.
A DAW is generally used for music production and they all have vast and huge functions and capabilities. There are good tutorials around but you need a large investment in time to learn a DAW.
I have a feeling in your case going to a DAW is not going to be a silver bullet to fix your stated issue. And as another poster pointed out, you can spend a lot of time tweaking aspects of the work in a DAW, sometimes not a good return on investment, unless you are working on a big dollar Hollywood production for example.
Question, do human performers produce the music you have in your head identically? A serious question…
In lengthy discussions over years I have with my New Complexity School composer colleague, he agrees with my thesis that in music composition through notation and engraving and performance and recording, there is lossage of original concept at every step of the way. This is to be expected.
In any case, Cubase is excellent (although you will find some long term prop users have their gripes) and the new incorporation of a Dorico based score editor is great.
You could go over to the Cubase category here in the Steinberg Discourse forum and spend time there reading and posting to see if Cubase may be a fit for you.
[And by the way, as per your OP, I do use both programs for my work.]
scoring (I had no other score product after having tried Sibelius and Finale)
Obviously I didn’t need anything more. And as a DAW Cubase is one of the best in the market. I started with Dorico (since the beginning) for its functionalities, especially for big orchestral scores, but I still have tons of scores made with the old Cubase Score, that are perfectly valid.
Actually Cubase + Dorico is a very good mix for my needs. For sure to master both, it isn’t a short way.
If you are looking for better playback just for yourself then I would say it’s not worth the effort. If you want to produce renders for commercial use then maybe it is.
I’ve used Cubase for many years and produced many albums with it. There’s a lot to learn, and getting good playback of orchestral instruments from sample libraries takes a lot of manual work.
I no longer export anything from Dorico to Cubase to improve the rendering. Using NP, NPPE and some sample libraries is good enough for me.
Even if it’s not good enough for you, I think the quality of rendering has improved quite quickly with innovations both in Dorico and Noteperformer / NPPE and I think that trend will continue for a while. So in a couple of years, things will be better.
For years (decades?) I have used Cakewalk and then Cubase, primarily to combine vocal tracks with Finale/Dorico MIDI or audio output, but I have never learned to use the DAWs idiomatically. (I wish I had the requisite time to devote to it, but I think it may also be a conceptual mindset that makes the job more difficult. Nonetheless, I am not sorry I own Cubase Pro, and I keep it up-to-date as new versions arrive.)
I suggest you download a demo when you have time to explore it and see if it provides the advantages you seek.
My genre is hard to describe. I think of it as classical, but it is a far cry from most of what passes for classical these days. As Vincent Persichetti once said to me, “Bassham, when are you going to get your head out of the nineteenth century?” (It was the mid-20th when he said this.). If you put Sibelius 7th Symphony, the Walton Viola Concerto, and the Leo Sowerby Organ Symphony in a blender and ran it for a few seconds, added some ice and something frothy, what came out would give you a hint of my style, though my stuff is more atonal and polytonal than those.
Lately I have been working mostly on choral/orchestral stuff. The Note Performer voices sound pretty good, but the orchestral blend is way off… To get anything remotely close to a good balance, I have to give very inaccurate dynamic indications, compared to what I know an orchestra really sounds like, and then put them back the way they need to be before I print them. (Or, as I have been doing more and more lately, have two different versions of the same piece: one for printing and one for playback. Gets to be a pain.) I’m also an orchestra conductor, so I do know what an orchestra sounds like.
Human performers do play much closer to what’s in my head, yes. Not identical, but much more closely than Dorico playback does. The problem is I very often can’t afford to pay the humans for the time needed.
I think that’s the core issue. The renders are not for commercial use, they’re just to give contest judges and other listeners a decent idea of what the piece actually sounds like, which is not very commercially rewarding! At 84 years of age I’m thinking the effort to learn DAW is probably not worth the hassle.
Thank to you and the other responders for good feedback.
@L3B hello,
I’m both Dorico Pro and Cubase Pro user for a very long time, especially when it comes to DAW…
The DAW worth spending time learning it in those cases:
If you are going to record real musicians for your projects.
If you need make any additional MIDI fine tweaking
If you need to make postproduction - track mixing and mastering
If you are a film music composer who is relaying mostly on virtual instrument + few additional live recorded instruments (which brings more breath and realism to the VI arrangements and orchestrations)
If you need to use additional synthesizers, effects, and sound design in your music.
If non of the mentioned above is not valid for your music, then you don’t need a DAW.
I agree. Perhaps the better strategy would be to find a younger kindred spirit who could do the DAW stuff for you, so you have time to focus on the dots.
That sounds like a really cogent summation of the situation, and I am marking it as the solution to my dilemma. As I need none of those five items, I hereby abandon any plan to learn DAW!
Hi L3B - I’ve been doing some orchestral stuff recently - using NotePerformer - and have been experiencing balance issues as well - particularly with the percussion. There are some fairly simple workarounds to tweak the settings in the NotePerformer mixer and/or to boost the velocity levels.in the Key Editor. It’s not perfect, but it will give the listener a good sense of what the piece should sound like.
@L3B,
Thank you for marking my post as solution for you, and maybe for someone else in your situation!
Well, since you need none of those five items, mentioned by me, then surely you don’t need to waste your time learning a DAW. In case you need something DAW related, you can always contact some guy around you, or someone of us, here, who are part of both scoring and DAW worlds.
I’d be interested in hearing more about your thesis - maybe it belongs on a different thread though. Just from your brief statement, there is a part of what you said that rings very true for me. (I’m now looking for the guilty icon. )
But I also feel at times that a piece stubbornly insists on becoming what it wants to be, like a child with its own mind. In times like that, are you losing pieces of the concept or discovering a truth about it?
And If the composer puts a part of themselves in what they write, does that include only the good stuff or limitations and struggle too? Is it part of how we forge a connection? I’m not arguing, just thinking. Like how I recognize my Dad in certain things he painted, and sometimes gain an insight about him.
I still think that Bassham is so active and creative that a little trip in a trial version of C14 could be a source of inspiration…
Importing MIDI, or better Audio, then tweaking a bit, it’s not so time consuming…
