Some thoughts about the notations toolbox

working in Dorico is rather intuitive, but sometimes Your workflow can be “interrupted”. This is - for me - the case when trying to find objects and functions in the notations toolbox.

Here some suggestions to clear things up:

  1. “tremolo” is a musical ornament and belongs to “trills” not to “repeats and endings”
  2. “repeats and endings” should go to “bars”
  3. Playing techniques could be beneath “dynamic” - this would be more logical to me
  4. Rehearsal marks could go with cues - because both are for orientation of the reader of a score
  5. Text and lyricals could be in one category because both is for actively writing
  6. I would leave chord symbols and fingering as they are, maybe in the near future steinberg adds a sophisticated numbering-tool for basso continuo (figured bass)

Hope this can help -the message is: please do not make the notations toolbox too busy…

In response to the first two points:

  1. Actually, the tremolo notation isn’t just an ornament but an abbreviation for repeating notes. A good explanation can be found at Jennifer Cluff: Slashes through note stems? . The number of slashes equals the number of beams you would normally have if all notes were written out. So, a quarter note with one slash equals two eighth notes of the same type. It’s just a shorthand way of writing repeating notes, and therefore it should be repeats.

  2. Dorico isn’t finished yet, and that also goes for repeats and endings. I could imagine that one-bar and two-bar repeat signs/functionality would also go into this category once implemented. And there are also “segno“ and “coda” type repeats that aren’t fitting into a “bars” category.

I agree with with @nussbichler, tremolo is a playing technique. Maybe some people use it as a shorthand but for instruments such as Mandolin that use it for a specific effect, it’s definitely a playing technique.

yes, tremolo is a playing technique, but what we see here is not tremolo, it is repeated notes (in abriavated notation):

tremolo playing technique is notated similarly- with three slashes…

I look at it slightly differently…

I agree the tremolo should not go in the “repeat tool” menu, as I see repeats (repeat endings, D.S./D.C., one bar repeats (%), etc.) as being more musical-form related, not so much as note related. The tremolo is a repeat, so I understand the reason why it is where it is, but I think the tremolo is more of a note repeat and not a musical-form repeat.

I believe for this reason, the tremolo should be moved into another category. Possibly even one of its own.


but the ‘slashed through’ notes are not tremolo

I refer to my former teacher Nikolaus Harnoncourt and he said that every repetition of a tone is an ornament or variation of a tone because it changes his colour.
@VIPStephan: inside the notations toolbox You see all kinds of tremolo and also the notation used for trills of thirds or 4th or chords - this shows that they are ornaments or “sound variations” of tones or intervals as trills are. The decision wether it is a rhythmical repetition or an unmeasured tremolo in many cases depends a lot on the context, the style and the tempo. A tremolo on the timpani p.e. can be notated in both ways, as a tremolo and also as a trill…

I agree with Robby Poole who mentions above that repeats are more musical-form related - there is no doubt about it. This is the reason I suggested to put repeats into the “bars” category, bars are divisions of time in a formal perspective. But @VIPStephan: I can approve Your argument that steinberg certainly has specific plans for this category and we cannot see the final result yet. Therefore I agree it is difficult to discuss the positioning and order of the elements. With every update of Dorico I was surprised concerning the intelligence of this amazing software and so I suppose there will be future surprises :wink:.

nussbichler, without wanting to become esoteric, if we follow the theory of physics, we will find that even repeats and pitch of notes are related.
The pitch of a tone is determined by the rhythm of the sound waves travelling to the ear.
So what starts as a rhythmic repeat of sound events, if you speed this up, you will end up with an audible pitch of a note. That is, where the meaning of frequency probably comes from, a frequent repetition.

I understand that tremolos are technically repeated notes, but personally I always have to look in two or three different places in Dorico before I find them in the repeats section. They simply aren’t associated with repeats in my mind.

Thanks for posting, Nussbichler.

I agree with 1, 2 and 4 but I’d leave the rest as they are. Personally I don’t mind if it’s “busy” on the right hand side - maybe collecting them into groups (which is pretty much the case at the moment) and putting spacing between the groups might help visibility.

Thank You for Your reply - meanwhile I think the same. @point 3.: Maybe the solution would be to make the parts of the palette arrangeable so You can change the order. Everybody has his nown individual workflow…

… I totally agree :smiley:


A view from a string player: the tremolo is a different technique than repeated notes are. Tremolo is colouring a note, make it sustain at the same time. Repeated notes are a rhythm, even if they are repeated very fast. I have to agree that the audible outcome can get close…

OK, I can go along with many arguments brought up here. I don’t know if there is any UI research about that but perhaps it could be an option to put slashed notes into several categories (and perhaps with a different sound/playing technique associated with them?).

I really don’t care where tremolos are given that we are able to invoke them from a popover sometime in the future.

that sounds like a good idea
for example Shift+P ///


nussbichler, sorry I have tricked you, you would probably prefer them to work with Shift+O … :wink:

I don’t feel being tricked - both is possible and better than repeats/endings.

I like the idea to have “O” for triggering Tremolo-Samples and “P” for rhythmical divisions (repetitions), both with the slashes and the first one (Trill) also with “z” (like the sign for fast unmeasured trem.). What do You think?