Sorry to ask this here, but ..

is there a way to sell the program back? I bought it like 4 1/2 weeks ago and don’t get along with it.

Thanx for an advice.

gogollny

Hello gogollny,
Well, I think you can’t return the software back to Steinberg, as they don’t have this practice.
You can try to sell it through FaceBook (there are groups for selling musical things), or on Ebay, etc.
Personally I would advise you to keep your copy of Dorico and give it a chance. Many improvements and
new features are about to come. Currently it’s much more intuitive than Sibelius and Finale…
Personally I came to Dorico from Overture 5 and Sibelius one month and 3 weeks ago… Still I’m thinking
that Overture is the most intuitive scoring software and it was very hard decision for me, but the app has
some problems due to wrong update politics of the developer, and I didn’t want to be a constant beta tester.
This is how I moved to Dorico… and I like it, despite that isn’t as intuitive as could be…
The decision is yours, but think once again before taking it! :slight_smile:

Best regards,
Thurisaz :slight_smile:

See here: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206531804-How-to-resell-Steinberg-software-Resale-Wizard-

Thank you both.
I am still thinking about what to do. But everytime I check out things in Dirico I have one genrnan thing coming to my head:

Why easy when there is a complicated way?

When I just look at the totally over complicated way of deleting bars… Hidden in a menu… Why not just clicking on the bars and than delete button. Which would be a very common procedure.
Complicated for no reason.
And unfortunately there are many of this ways of thinking which I mean by not getting behind the “concept” .

But what makes me thinking about what to do is that you and some others say that dorico is the less worst between other worse solutions.
In German logic forums the reputation of dorico is the same :… Ok but veeeery no intuitive. No chance to get into it without help or teacher.
But the people from the company seem to be absolutely convinced about this way… So new features won’t solve “hiding in menus” concept though also this forum is full of “how to…” and “where is…” questions.

But again thank you both.
All the best

Gogollny

You can delete bars by selecting them with the System Track and then clicking the trash can.

Or by typing Shift-B followed by the (negative) number of bars you want to delete, then hitting Enter.

I honestly can’t remember the last time I actually clicked on the Write menu. It’s the least efficient way of using the software.

Sometimes the system track is hidden sometimes not. I don’t know the rules for that.

I had the solution from the manual “how to delete bars” with opening the text menu tipping the number of bars etc…
But that’s what I am talking about…for almost everything there are several sub rules to be known…

It’s hidden in Engrave mode because in Dorico’s modular setup, the user should not to be able to delete bars or notes in that mode. You can toggle it on or off in Write mode with Alt-T.

There are multiple pages in the manual for deleting bars, because there are multiple ways of doing it. See https://steinberg.help/dorico/v2/de/dorico/topics/notation_reference/notation_reference_bars_beats_deleting_system_track_t.html for the page on deleting bars from the System Track. The System Track can be shown or hidden in Write mode using Alt/Opt-T.

Why have multiple methods? Well, the System Track is very quick if it’s just a few bars (or if you don’t want to actually count the bars yourself), but it’s painfully slow if you want to delete 100 bars. Typing Shift-B -100 Enter is much quicker.

Gogollny hello,
I can completely understand your point. Yes, unfortunately Dorico isn’t as intuitive as it could be and without video tutorials and wasting too much
time on the manual you can’t achieve much. And if you didn’t use some functions very often, you can easily forget how they work, and again
you have to check the manual, or to ask here. Every single day when I’m using Dorico, I need to consult the manual, or to check some tutorial, in comparison with the previous software I was using - Overture which I had used for more than 2 years, I consulted the manual around 30 times for no longer than 3 minutes, for the whole period, and there are almost 0 video tutorials…
Well, the Sibelius (which is one of the best examples for bad software design in terms of workflow and menu organization) past of the team has it’s positives and negatives… The complexity and the tons of hidden menus is part of the negatives.
I also would like Dorico to be not so tech and much more friendly towards the users. Probably, in the future, some functions will be simplified. Still it’s
new product. Very often to make something to work in a simple way for the others, actually isn’t a simple task for the developer…
For the moment there is no better solution than Dorico (in terms of stability, professional engraving and relatively easy to use). Overture is easier, but
it’s code is very fragile and easily crashes. The engraving side isn’t bad, but it far behind Dorico. Currently the playback and expression maps are much better in Overture, but many improvements in this area will come into Dorico.
Worth to think once more before selling your Dorico copy! :slight_smile:

Best regards,
Thurisaz

Can we issue a moratorium on continued references to Overture, please? It’s getting old.

I’ve dipped into Overture. I found it thoroughly confusing and didn’t like it at all. But am I going to go on and on about how unintuitive it is? No. Instead, I acknowledge that it was because I’m used to a notation program that’s completely different, and I didn’t take the time to learn how Overture works.

When I started using Dorico, I was coming from 20 years with Finale. I didn’t just start clicking and typing and getting frustrated because Dorico didn’t behave the way I thought it would. I started from scratch, willing to unlearn everything about how I had previously used notation software. I watched the tutorial videos several times and took notes before I ever installed anything. Then when I downloaded Dorico and started using it, it just made sense. Sure, there was still a lot to learn, but it didn’t feel foreign to me.

“Intuitive” is a very overused and misunderstood word, in my opinion—so much so that it’s nearly meaningless in this context. If you want to learn a program, become a student of it. Don’t expect the program to conform to your preconceptions of what is intuitive and what isn’t.

I don’t expect Dorico’s UI will fundamentally change going forward. I certainly hope it doesn’t.

There’s a reasonable point being made here. Users do need to put some time and effort into understanding how to work with Dorico. It’s not one of those programs you can load up and know how it all works.

I don’t think that’s unusual. I remember switching from Fireworks to Photoshop and really struggling to understand why things that were so simple to do in one program were so difficult in the other. And, of course, it turned out that they weren’t difficult at all. They were just set up differently and all i needed to do was learn how to do it differently.

If you do put a bit of time and effort in - and I really recommend watching the videos as a great way to learn - Dorico delivers. And as you get used to it you’ll begin to grasp just how much detail, scope and power there is in the program.

And by the way, I am sympathetic to the struggle, because that’s where I am with InDesign right now. When I need to do is fairly simple, and I’m struggling to learn how to do it. I admit I’ve done a lot of clicking through menus and trying to figure it out myself, which hasn’t gone well. It’s been frustrating. But I’m not going to claim InDesign is “unintuitive”!

Having taught myself Quark XPress, Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Finale, Filemaker, and countless other complex applications, often with limited access to documentation and external help of any kind, I can say that Dorico is one of the easiest and most intuitive programs with the most consistent UI I’ve ever used. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to spent time learning how it works.

We are absolutely spoilt with all the videos, documentation and help on this forum. When I think of how much time I spent in front of a Mac II trying to understand why Finale’s SpeedyEntry would only do rests… :open_mouth:

One thing that may help users is something I sometimes struggle with. I need to do something, but can’t remember if it’s in layout options, engraving options, notation options, etc and I go clicking around till I find what I need. But that takes time. Sure, the people who use dorico 8 hours a day have this in their brain.

I think once the spotlight type search feature makes it’s way into the software, users who can’t remember the popover keystroke, or where to find the options to delete a bar etc, just type in what they need and the search feature gives you all the different ways you can achieve it, or in which menu etc you can find it. Is this called fuzzy searching? Can’t remember…

Of course, we should all read the manual and get to know the software inside out. Just thinking out loud.

This was my biggest struggle with Dorico. I distinctly remember one day in the beginning searching in layout, notation, and engraving options over and over again exasperated. Once you map out where various functions are, then it’s easy peasy. If people can remember which sub-sub-sub-sub (changes with context) menu a setting in finale is, they can certainly learn Dorico.

As a piano and organ player, I find guitar to be non intuitive. Had to give up. How anyone plays guitar is beyond me.

Learning guitar requires a lot of pluck.
(I know, some guitar virtuoso will tell me not to fret about it.) :confused:

I have sat down on several occasions to read the manual (2020-01-22 version), but it is 1297 pages long. After many hours I have not got beyond page 500, and clearly a single reading is not enough. I dont take kindly to having to sit down and watch videos, as I have to keep repeating things and making notes. I have transcriptions of some of the video scripts and they are more useful to me. For example, http://www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/automatic-condensed-conductors-scores-in-dorico/ The videos and transcriptions do not cover everything, however, and I would welcome a contents-listed and well indexed pdf of 200-300 pages that is a condensed version of the full manual, with references to the relevant pages in the manual and the videos.

David

Certainly the manual is well indexed. Perhaps it is better to start there rather than reading straight through the manual, perhaps after reading Dan Kreider’s introduction document.

What those of us who started with Dorico in the beginning, before any manual existed at all, found helpful (I suspect) were some of Daniel Spreadbury’s early blogs covering the philosophy behind Dorico’s construction.

For new features, reading the release notes may give you info in a more condensed form than the manual.

There are different sorts of intuitive. Sibelius and Finale (and maybe even the O-word) are one sort of intuitive, if you start from the “Intuition” that a musical score is a piece of paper (real or virtual) with a lot of markings on it.

On the other hand Players, Flows and Layouts are not what most people would instantly call “Intuitive” but once you understand them, you can do a lot of “stuff” much more easily than by just “editing marks on the paper”.

The same goes for thinking about notation in terms of semantics like Dynamics, Tempos, Playing Techniques, Condensing, etc, not their representation on the page as Text, Lines, Symbols, Extracting Parts, etc.