Staff spacing when staves have Staff Text

Good evening,

Above my first system of the page I add one, two, three ore more staff text lines. This text lines exceeds the top margin Is there a middle to enter an option so that staff spacing does take into account the possible staff text we attach above or under a staff or under a system ?
What I do now is to move manually the staff down ; but when I add a new flow in the same page, the staff of this flow appears in collusion with the first flow’s staff or sometimes appears above the first staff.

Thank you by forehand for your help.

Koenraad

You should not move the staff, but the frame (Engrave mode > Frame submode, select the music frame’s top handle and drag it down with alt-down arrow). This way your staff spacing will remain consistent. Beware it creates a page override.

Thank you, Marc.
It’s a solution, but I have not on each page the same number of lines of staff text above my first staff.

I did not suggest to change the masterpage — you don’t need to be in Frame submode for that. I told you to override each page where the problem takes place. So my guess is you won’t have to move the frame equally, depending on the staff text. I agree it’s not very elegant, but it does work. You should keep it as the last editing done before printing.

Ah yes, I understand. It’s a good idea…
…Waiting for Dorico 4 who should allow us to specify for each music frame if staves are aligned directly above, or taking into account the staff text.
Thanks for your help.

Does your text definitely need to be staff text (i.e. attached to the music), or could you put it in text frames? That way the text would be separate from the music, and you wouldn’t need to worry about it going beyond the page margins (as music frames determine their padding based on the top/bottom staff lines in the system).

You could either add these text frames to the master page (including having multiple different master page designs, depending on the amount of text required) or as page overrides. As Marc suggests, it’s generally best to leave such amendments until the end of the process when the music is more fixed to avoid complications.

Thank you Lillie for your precisions.
It seems that its remains necessary to adjust manually the spacing for the next staves.

This looks like flow headings would work well in getting the formatting closer to what you want automatically. Are you able to share the project? I’d be happy to make some changes to demonstrate what I mean.

I used staff text instead of text frames listening the advice of Dan Kreider :

Secondly, I would definitely recommend adding the text as Staff Text. It’s much easier to work with in this case

in this topic : https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1046101#p1046101
Thank you for your help.
Leçons d’orgue Augustin.dorico.zip (1.25 MB)

I like flow headers as a solution in general, except in situations like this where there is a lot of text. I guess there’s not reason why it wouldn’t work, though that’s a lot of text packed into the flow title. Or maybe you could use the “Other info” field… hmm…

Either way, I think it’s best to try and avoid overrides if possible. Overrides aren’t categorically bad, but they are tenuous—meaning, data can be easily lost if pages get changed. But if the text is staff-attached, it’s not going to get lost.

Hi Koenraad, Here’s an alternative version of your project using flow headings to display the majority of your introductory information for each exercise - I’ve just done the first two pages.

It’s not a perfect solution in your case (as for the exercises that use 2 separate flows, the automatic flow headings would need to be deleted manually for the 2nd flow, which does create a page override) but it hopefully demonstrates one way you can work with the in-built flow heading feature. Flow headings can contain text and graphics frames if needed, and in the text frames you can enter any text or tokens - so here, I’ve used a combination of flow title, subtitle, and other info (basically as you’d already started) and just made sure the corresponding bits of text from the text objects were in the right fields in Project Info.

I didn’t have your fonts so it’s a bit messy but hopefully the principle is clear - as you can see, I’ve not moved staves manually or done anything other than customize the flow heading and adjusted layout options for the margins above/below flow headings and for using the First master page (I set that to ‘Never’ given that all your pages are formatted the same). I also made the playback template “Silence” to reduce the file size when uploading/downloading. Feel absolutely free not to change your current approach if it works for you! This is just an example.

Leçons d’orgue Augustin_LH_demo.dorico.zip (404 KB)

Maybe for those you could keep those two exercises as one flow. Just add a final barline where desired, and add staff text. Like this (just did the first one): https://www.dropbox.com/s/73dmp87gkg6492i/Augustin_LH_demo%20v2.dorico?dl=0

Just thinking out loud here. This is helpful for me too, as I have to do this sort of stuff and am always looking for a better way…

Funnily enough I was just trying that - where there’s a clef change, you’ll get the cautionary at the end of the first system, but it’s potentially a solution. You’d want to hide barlines in the layout probably.

EDIT: Coda, of course - nice.

I apologize for my lack of reactivity to all your very useful messages. I give classes and I come back to Dorico as soon as I have a free moment.
I will try to adapt your modifications to my model.

No need to apologise at all! Take your time to have a look and see if you prefer how it works to how you’ve got it set up at the moment - you can evaluate how long it would take to many any amendments vs how long it took you to do all the manual staff spacing changes in your previous version :slight_smile:

The only disadvantage I encounter with the flow heading system is that I cannot any more customize the spacing of an exercise in order to insert a picture for example or to allow to have two lines of staves in a longer exercise.

I’m not sure I understand… You can certainly have an exercise that spans multiple staves or systems without affecting the spacing of the flow header.

And I’m not at the computer right now, but I believe you can still customize the spacing between the first staff and the flow header. Don’t use the large box, but use the small one underneath it.

How does one delete a flow heading for one flow only? Do you mean physically removing the flow header frame in Engrave Mode? And how does one use flow headers to accommodate a series of texts with different numbers of lines without having to create separate flow headers for each flow?

You’re right. I had not think about that.

Yes it is possible like you say. Finally, although its not perfect, there are not specially disadvantages with the solution of flow headings and I see only avantages in comparaison of my first manner.

You’d delete the frame manually on the layout itself (thus creating an override).

I hadn’t realized this before, but flow headers seem to automatically adjust for lines of text as needed! You just need to use a field that can include a large amount of text, like “other info.”