I read that the first caveman that incorporated the blowing of a ram’s horn into music, which until then had consisted entirely of sticks being struck against hollow logs, when he showed up at Newport, he got roundly booed
so JM that makes most people in the recording industry NON musicians ?
i can program and play synths live at a rate of knots you would not be able to comprehend BUT because i can’t and don’t want to read music im not a musician ? carry on with your blues acoustic matey ,the world changes .since when has BMX been classed as a Olympic sport ??? so synth players or not musicians lol .
ive been welding for 37 years but have never learned the theory side of welding does that mean im not a welder ?
JMCecil wrote
we should have a little respect for the amount of dedication it takes to be a good one
JM - I know brilliantly talented musicians who don’t have an ounce of dedication, just an indefinable talent. My 16 year old son tonight just wandered around my studio playing the drums, then guitar and finally settling down to play solid, imaginative and musical bass.
He’s a natural musician but you’ll never get him into a classroom. Lazy? Yes - like his father!
I think one thing is for sure: Music is a lifelong activity for musicians and that means a lot of different things to many different people. I can practice my ass off for four hours a day and there will still be a whole lot more to learn.
I recently revisited a quote which spoke to passion (in its various humanitarian forms), which isn’t always evident with computer-assisted music:
Not to invalidate anyone as a musician, but I think there’s a huge separation between musicians who have toiled with learning a real musical instrument and continue to be warriors about executing their musical expression with that old school way; enhanced with the aid of computers in having improved their musicianship and writing skills - than musicians who are ‘new breed’ by having only computer savvy to make music with a knowledge of how to ‘cut and paste’ within the protocols of computer-based recording technology.
Actually, most people in the recording industry by a wide margin are not musicians.
i can program and play synths live at a rate of knots you would not be able to comprehend BUT because i can’t and don’t want to read music im not a musician ? carry on with your blues acoustic matey ,the world changes .since when has BMX been classed as a Olympic sport ??? so synth players or not musicians lol .
Either I drank too much to write a complete thought, or you drank too much to read one, or both. I’m pretty sure I listed lots of things that qualify as being a musician. I didn’t limit it to reading music. Although, I will say that you would limit yourself in a lot of “musician” scenarios that require reading music. I know some tremendous players who can’t read music. They have deep deep repertoire and can swap between musical styles at the drop of a hat. I classify that as being a musician. I even classify crappy punk band members who can barely spell bass guitar as musicians if they are up slapping strings in front of people every night. I was drawing the line at using tools to create an end result. There is ZERO musicianship involved even though music results. Just as typing in the correct sequence of numbers into a calculator doesn’t mean you performed mathematics even though you got the right answer.
ive been welding for 37 years but have never learned the theory side of welding does that mean im not a welder ?
And throwing a frozen burrito in the microwave doesn’t make you a chef, even though the results might taste good. I know welders who would say that you may be able to weld, and even possibly to a high standard, but if you tried to do anything industrial without proper training, you would put peoples lives in danger.
I don’t know your son or you, so please don’t take this as a direct flame on either of you …
Like most professions there are musicians and there are MUSICIANS. I’ve listened to countless interviews with fabulous guitar players like Steve Vai, Joe Bonamassa, Steve Howe, Paco De Lucia etc… who get down right offended when you suggest that they were born with the ability to play the guitar at a high level. They worked their asses off to expand on natural talent to take it to that place where they play mind numbingly difficult things and make it sound simple.
Every place I’ve ever lived (that’s a lot of cities), has music stores jammed with kids that have all kinds of talent, but they can’t translate it to being a professional. They don’t have the drive. In fact, I think there are more kids with more talent and are further along at an earlier age than ever before due to the availability of online tutorials and training information. But, that doesn’t seem to be translating into a plethora of professional bands with expressive musical ideas.
Back to the original point though. There is NOTHING wrong with using tools to make music, but if you feel guilty because you KNOW there is little or no musicianship involved just means you desire to MAKE the music yourself. You want to understand it. You want to be able to make it come out of yourself, not a sound bite from a library. I understand that feeling completely, even though I full accept the fact that brilliant music is made by programmers that don’t have an ounce of musical talent.
JMCecil
There is NOTHING wrong with using tools to make music, but if you feel guilty because you KNOW there is little or no musicianship involved just means you desire to MAKE the music yourself.
I think that is the complete answer for the OP and anyone else who feels uneasy about using the vast array of tools available to us through computers - but it takes a musical brain to create, organise and blend all the instruments, melodies, percussions etc. into a coherent musical piece. The technician/engineering skills have become much more important since the advent of computerised music and it’s true that non-musicians, through imitation, can make what passes for music (computer games, hip-hop, jazz etc.) without the slightest musical inclination or talent.
Maybe computers are making us all into “Jack(s) of all trades, masters of none”?
Thanks to Steve for posting tasty food for thought! 
PS - I didn’t mean it about the jazz 
lol, I read straight past Jazz, maybe you’re right 
I like this quote from the Brian Eno article Joan Cubaez linked:
“Actually, almost any arbitrary collision of events listened to enough times comes to seem very meaningful.”
Eno was a quote machine. And that is a great observation.
if you can play your instrument to the standard of pleasuring other people then you are a musician , forget the snobbery of noob jockies , music is for everyone and if your lucky enough to have a talent and create music weather your trained or untrained then your a musician ! NUFF said
no doubt yanky land has something to say on that ?
the country that would not recognize the greatest guitarist ever born till he came to england and form the experience …and you think you know what a musician is
We’ll let you use a talented hobbiest the next time you need brain surgery. Me, I’m stickin with the professionals.
JMCecil
We’ll let you use a talented hobbiest the next time you need brain surgery
Shame on you JM - that’s a terrible analogy! 
„Knowing how to play instruments is fine, but knowing how to make music only belongs to the truly great.“
– John Cage -
lol sad yanky talk as normal , head up a r se problem ,ive been producing music longer than you could even think about playing with your g string old timer !
cubase is a realise cubase is production ,cubase is for those that pay the money where being a serious hobbyist like me that makes money from using this program or a pretentious pratt like you insulting everyone that doesn’t live on the wanky continent , get a life , musicians make music , noob heads hang out in forums tells tails of shite … and by your previous posts you are trying and failing big time to take the place of glen …GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE NOOB HEAD it’s about music and not your ego !
Typical internet response. Instead of discussing the issue and coming up with an intelligent response, you just throw lame insults.
However, press on with your producing … assuming you even know what the word means.
Just when I thought Steve had finally started a thread that didn’t turn into a flame war…
uumm you can’t answer the jimi part can you …? typicaL YANK likes to argue ,cause wars ,then leave ! i produce and play more instruments then you will ever know but in your eyes im not a musician , put down your 335 and learn life , people and structure of rythem from human beings instead of a text book then you will become a musician of the future and NOT a fossil of the past old boy !
peace man … I don’t know why you think I’m insulting you. I’m not. Also, if you really read what I wrote you would see that there is more room than you are giving me credit for in the definition. Also, I clearly stated that I don’t even agree with myself sometimes. Take a breath … just think about it for a second. I have no problem if you don’t agree with me. Please don’t go all shotguns and hand grenades just because I might not agree with you. Be content in your own abilities. You don’t need my approval.
Also, you might want to meet someone before you start comparing things like “number of instruments”
Hey Steve, after you finish your “cheating” tune ( 
), just plug in a mic and a guitar and do one that’s just you, no features, then you can prove to yourself that you’re still a musician, either way. If you feel good about it, then no worries. If not, return Cubase for a refund!
Carpenters have power saws and hand saws, all a means to the same end.
Cheers