I’m pretty desperate about this one: I’m writing for keyboards, use independent voice mode to assign multiple vst-sounds and - to avoid a lot of voices in the future - I use the “edit apply to this flow”-feature in each flow and start over with the voices.
That would do the trick, but sometimes Dorico reacts quirky:
It jumps and does nothing at all when I try to choose vst-plugin and channel:
I’ve created a little test-file where this error is reproducible:
go to flow 2, choose the last track (b stem-down 1) and try to change NotePerformer to Halion. Try to open the vst-plugin - nothing happens
Hi @masis82, I don’t quite understand your set up and what you are trying to obtain generally. I see that you are using playing techniques to switch the channels, which works. Are you using a specific playback template? I see NP playback template activated (but this is my default): are you then adding Halion instances as the projects develops? Or something else?
Anyway I have tried to reproduce your issues but all works as expected. Maybe can you explain more what are you trying to do? Perhaps there are better workflows. (But possibly someone ho understands your goals can tell more).
Here the video of me trying to reproduce your described issue:
Setup: multiple VSTs, 3 Keyboards, multiple voices of them connected
to the vsts, so: each voice has its unique patch. But if I do this for a whole show
with ~45 flows, every keyboard will have about 40 (!!!) voices or even more.
To avoid this, “Edits apply to this flow” would be perfect so I can start over every new flow/song/number of the show with voice 1.
You described what you did in trying to obtain something. Please describe what you want to obtain. Sorry but is not completely clear to me (maybe someone else can understand better and reply to you).
I want to connect each voice of one single instrument with a different patch in the vst-plugin.
Result: each voice sounds differently.
In my specific case: a keyboard plays in a musical-show different sounds in both hands (voice 1 piano, voice 2 organ, voice 3 strings…)
Problem: There will be lots of voices for this instrument because of the long duration of the play. Solution: each flow starts with fresh, empty voices so it’s possible to start again with number 1. Example: 1. flow: (voice 1 piano, voice 2 organ, voice 3 strings…), 2. flow (voice 1 synth, voice 2 brass, voice 3 guitar…)
So “Edits apply to this flow” would do the trick: activating and changing each voice to a new sound without affecting the previous flows.
That’s the only solution I could find for writing a whole show with keyboards.
I hope I was able to express myself better this time.
This is a very convoluted setup, and is very prone to errors.
And your described issue was not reproducible, so I have no idea what may be going on on your system.
The only thing I can suggest for now would be to try with a different approach: some time ago I suggested a specific workflow for music-theatre music score with one keyboard playing different instruments, using cues in a peculiar way. The advantage is that you have global control of the sounds and can make changes relatively fast and is all quite straightforward and easy controllable.
How does your keyboard generate these different sounds? Are you expecting the player to apply different patches in real time? If so, you should probably use different playing techniques to signal these changes to the player, rather than different voices…
If your keyboard changes setting at flow boundaries, my first thought would be to create a different keyboard player for each flow, each with its own setup of voices. Then create a single layout that includes all the keyboard players but shows only the appropriate keyboard for each flow.
Unfortunately I can reproduce it not only on my desktop-pc, on my laptop as well.
Anyways. Thank youso much for this great workaraound! That’s exactly what I try to get and in the past I got several times the advice to use voices only. But to using cues… I never would have thought of that!
With your great step-by-step-tutorial that shouldn’t be no problem anymore!
Thank you Derrek as well! Great idea using seperate players for each flow! The problem is in my sepcific case: I got 3 keyboard-players and 45 (!) flows. So for smaller projects that would be an easy solution which I will keep in mind.
Just one last thing:
After lying awake all night, something else occurred to me, and I’d like to know your opinion on it:
apply each player more instruments, let’s say 4 to each
each instrument is connected to one specific voice so there are maximum of 16 voices (4 up-stem, 4 down-stem, 2 hands) for each player in the worst case (still manageable).
load each voice/instrument a seperate halion-instance: each voice acts as a bank with 16 programs. So there are now 4 banks, each with 16 programs, a total of 64 - that’s a lot.
switch programs with program-change-messages (using playing techniques and expression maps)
change instrument within a single player when 16 programs are reached to switch from one bank to the next. (and back)
That should work really well too, shouldn’t it?
(I’ll try that out later and take some screenshots for you so it’s clearer what I mean.)
Are you expecting the player to apply different patches in real time?
Of course not.
Keyboard players program their instrument in advance and switch the programs with program-change-messages during the performance. Mostly with a foot-switch, sometimes manually.
I lost again 6 hours and I am at Zero again, sorry to say that.
My idea didn’t work because you have to activate “independent voice playback” anyways to let your keyboard sound differently in each hand. Sooner or later this will mix up with the voices because Dorico doesn’t connect the voices correctly. It seems, it’s pure coincidence.
Besides: you have to set up a bunch of playing techniques for each keyboards what becomes confusing pretty soon.
Maybe when you create right from the start more voices and never touch them again, than (maybe) Dorico doesn’t mix up them up and the programming stays solid.
So, I give up. Seems keyboard-players are not welcome in Dorico. I lost 2 days and need to proceed and I will simply continue writing the show and let the keyboards sound simply with a piano sound and done…
That’s my experience. For my template project (different from Project Template), I pre created all the divisi, enabled independent playback and routed everything. Regardless if I delete the divisi, notes etc. Dorico remembers the routing when I create a new divisi.
Thanks again for this great tutorial. Unfortunately it doesn’t suit my project: The idea of having about 60 players in setup-mode and in an extra working-score really gives me the creeps.
The only solution in my case (with snags) is using program-change-messages: load one instance of Halion for each hand and player. Set it to GM-Mode. Browse the GM-Sounds of Halion, choose the desired instrument and remember the GM-number. Use a playing technique and connect it with an expression map. Set the map with CC 0=64 and a program-change-message. Take the remembered GM-instrument.number minus 1 and set it as the program-change.
For transposing one octave higher add CC 101=0, 100=2, 6=76 (these are semitones, 64 is neutral)
This will immediately load the desired GM-instrument on the fly.
The program-changes do work in Kontakt 7 too: Create a new instrument bank, click on tool-icon to expand it, now you see all the program-slots, drag&drop from the browser your desired sound on the slots.
The advantages are: easy to use,
saves RAM,
never bother about voices anymore
no tons of players, staves or voices.
Snags: loading time generates a little gap in playback - pre-load not possible (as I found out)
layer-sounds difficult or impossible to program (maybe someone has an idea?)
If anyone is interessted I would keep this thread up to date and post my progress and experiences about this concept.
I don’t know which version of Dorico you are running (SE, Elements or Pro?) but, except for SE, you are not limited to GM sounds in Halion. You can preload any sounds you need and switching between them is immediate. You can also handle octave transpositions using the expression map (so no need for cc messages).
I still think there is utility in adding multiple keyboard instruments to your player and using instrument changes. This will allow you to use multiple Halion instances, or other VSTs in the single player and may resolve some of your program change lags.
If you could post an excerpt of your project that shows the complexity you are dealing with, we could help more.
(it’s the project - whole orchestra and lots of bars randomly deleted)
I did a last big make-over of the concept and the project and I am working
with it for several hours without any issues. Looks like this will be the solution.
I will test it the next days to be sure and post my results with a demo project.
