I suppose it is OK, then. Which one, that is best, and why it still doesn’t work, I couldn’t say without knowing the library.
Have you tried the MIDI Pitch Bend method?
Not sure what you mean with the pitch bend…
The “fall” isn’t a pitch bend, it’s like several notes downwards played rapidly (no “bending” involved). To my ears in Vhorns it seems to call recorded “fall” samples using a round robin (with differing number of notes).
Apart from the fall, which kind of served as an example in our discussion, I’m looking for a generic solution to control Vhorns sax effects from the score, not just the “fall”. As for real bends, a recorded bend is not the same as a programmed bend, so I prefer the Vhorns sample(s).
On other instruments, such as Vhorns trumpet, there are other controllable effects that I would like to use.
For now the “keyswitch staff solution” to me seems the easiest to implement, though maybe not in line with the Dorico philosophy. I guess this is more of a DAW-ish solution, with melody and keyswitches on different tracks, but the important thing for me is it works. For now at least, maybe I need to find different solutions for different effects.
Any ideas always welcome, but I’d like to thank you @Nickie_Foenshauge for all the time you spent so far in trying to help me out, very kind of you! The major “break-through” was your discovery that the CC1 issue was related to the multiple voices. That saves me a lot of headaches 
Umderstood, and what you say makes good sense.
I am still not sure why the expression map doesn’t work, but I notice that in one of your screenshots, the keyswitch note in Sax 3 comes one eight note after the main note in Sax 1. The ornaments will always activate the associated Playback technique, and therefor also the expression map, at the start of the note. In case the VHorns, and other instruments, require a keyswitch to kick in AFTER the start of the note (as your screenshot suggests), there is a trick that might be useful.
Notice flz. Playing Technique in the screenshot. Playing techniques can be moved to any grid position - in the screenshot it is an eight note after the note onset. A Playing technique triggers a Playback technique which in turn triggers the Expression map. And Playing techniques and Playback techniques can be custom made and hidden. So you could fx. create a “fall” Playing technique, that triggers a “fall” Playback technique (this may need to be custom made too). You could then place this fake “fall” technique wherever you like and hide it. In theory at least, this ought to do the same as your Sax 3 keyswitch note, but without the extra Player. A bit neater, if it works.
Some libraries need key switches, CC events, program changes, etc…to be a MIDI tick or two before, or on the exact same tick as the note on event of the sounding note or they might not work.
Some instruments also use temporary key switches (rather than toggling style) that must be ‘held down in the on position’ while the note is triggered. I.E. If you tapped a temp key switch really quickly it might send both the trigger on and off events in the same MIDI tick (or at least send the off before the intended note on event happens) and confuse the plugin. Dorico is designed in a way to try to avoid problems with temp style key-switches, but it’s still possible it might do something by default that a given library doesn’t like!
I.E. if that key switch on event comes a tick too late, or if it also sends the switch off event too soon, you don’t get the articulation/effect.
If you are entering key switches directly using an independent staff (I.E. a mostly empty stave that you’d later ‘hide’ with nothing but notes for key switches drawn onto it), you might try adding them at the end of the beat before as a tied value note, and making sure they hold over longer (overlap) than the next note with the intended articulation change. (Or drag the real time/playing starting place of the note earlier on the timeline using the key-editor).
In most cases you can probably just drag the note start position in the key editor so it triggers a few milliseconds earlier. If happens at the start of a project or flow, you might have problems there unless you have a pick-up measure or something.
For what it’s worth…I sometimes make a special drum kit for complicated instruments that need a lot of manual interaction (precise yet abnormal timing) for key switches and other commands that for whatever reason(s) aren’t conductive to expression maps (or that I just don’t have time to build, test, and troubleshoot expression maps for).
For stuff like managing mutes and articulations for jazz brass, handling organ stops/drawbars and whatnot, it’s often something you’d want to show somehow in a score anyway. A neat drum stave under or over (or even both) the grand staff can grant a lot of options for providing playing instructions to both your instrument library, as well as to actual performers. It remains an ‘option’ to display or hide such staves in write/page or engrave modes.
I’ll connect this new ‘drum kit’ stave to the same endpoint as the stave that sends the notes. It can be made to look neat and professional…and can be hidden or kept with scores and parts accordingly.
I can also build, mix, and match Custom Playing techniques over time to go with the drum kit, as well as for the grand stave. Added flexibility, and a bit of isolation between things that should apply to ‘any library that might be used by others if I share the score’, and stuff that is more exclusive to my particular personal collection of sound libraries. I can also have my drum kit stave set up to do stuff like ignore or change ‘humanization’ or other things set in the ‘default playback template’ (duration settings for stuff like slur marks, accents, and so forth), yet have that stuff remain intact for the grand stave itself.
In short, I keep the grand staff as close to pure General MIDI as I can keep it, and do the ‘fancy stuff’ in the ‘drum kit stave’.
I.E. Dealing with organ ranks, or complicated harp plugins. The advantage to using a percussion map and stave under or above the grand stave here is that I can map it all out like a drum kit on a fresh and neat looking stave of its own. I can make it a single line stave (also possible to ‘hide’ the line(s) of such staves if preferred) and use different shaped note heads that’d be remembered and associated with the ‘key-switch’, add all sorts text, etc, instead of trying to deal with ugly, space hogging clef staves full of hard to enter/read added lines below or above a staff.
Since everything I’ll need for the plugin is stored in that percussion map (not hard to build a kit as you go…you’re just entering key-switches instead of drum kit instruments), I don’t have to ‘remember the key-switches’ as I go. I can just cycle through the ‘drum kit’ and easily add what I want, exactly where I want it, at whatever ‘duration’ is required, and have it displayed neatly on a single line or two. I can then go to the key editor if required, and deal with fine adjustments to the actual start/end times of the events.
Some things need a CC or Program change instead of ‘note on/off’ events. I.E. legato and portamento pedals. In those cases, of course I need to take advantage of Playing Techniques and an expression map. Still, in tying it to my special drum kit instead of the actual grand staff, I can get some extra flexibility in ‘precision’ for timing, make better ‘library exclusive’ notes for myself, and if I share the score with people who don’t have my fancy library, they can simply mute or delete my ‘drum kit’ stave and still get a nice clean and simple General MIDI translation from that grand staff, or spending all day fighting the dialogs to build Playing Techniques and link them up with a ‘not built yet’ expression map. I just ‘draw it’ on the drum stave…
If you are using expression maps, there are some options to force events to happen as many ticks as you want ‘early’. Don’t forget that if the instrument uses toggle style key-switches, the expression map will need to be designed in a way that provides information to, in the least, switch back to the natural articulation once it’s done.
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I am using VHorns myself and it works amazingly well with Dorico (including Falls)… as long as you keep the following in mind :
- Key switches attached to notes through expressions are “note on” or “note off” events by nature
- “Falls” need to be triggered at some point during the note between the “note on” and “note off” events, therefore they cannot be triggered by regular expression triggered key switches
- DORICO 5 came up with the concept of “Midi Trigger Region” with allow you to attach key switches to Staffs at any given position and for any given duration :
MIDI trigger regions - By using those midi trigger regions you won’t ever need to use separated tracks for your key switches again !
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@Emmanuel_Cambier, so glad you came by to look at my issue. Your solution works perfectly! I’m happy that Dorico provided this powerful, easy to use option. With “snap” set for example to 32th note it is possible to adjust the default selected trigger zone to great detail and exactly achieve the desired result. I also like the clear and nonintrusive graphics used to display the zones.
Here is the midi trigger method applied to some of my phrases:
Fall using keyswitch C#2 (fall starts a while after the D is blown)
Scoop using keyswitch F#2 (mimicked by creating bend from F to F#)
The playback in both cases is perfect, though the notation for the scoop still isn’t ok. The end note of the scoop is F#, a # symbol is missing, but I have to write F natural to make the playback sound correctly.
Have you used Vhorn bends for scoops? if yes, how do you solve this notation issue?
Have you created and/or found Dorico playback templates/expression maps for Vhorns? Would you be willing to share? (I understand if you don’t)
The correct approach to achieve this would be as follow :
- Definitely write an F# since this is the correct destination
- The correct key switch for Scoop is F2 … F#2 is for Plop which is the opposite technique
- Of course now you want the F2 key switch to be at the beginning of your F# note and to stop precisely at the moment you want the player to reach the destination F# note.
The only times I tried to use other people’s Expression Maps led to pure disasters as I couldn’t grasp the deep logic underneath.
So I strictly create my own Expression Maps and Playback Templates, it is quite a (horrendous) lot of work but it’s the only way to truly come to know and understand the deep relation that can be created between such excellent VI as VHorns and a very advanced Notation based software like DORICO… this knowledge will come very handy very soon.
And of course there is this incredible Forum where we all learn continuously !!
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Indeed, using F2 gives the desired result:
I understand your point about the expression maps and playback templates and I somewhat expected this answer (even though I wouldn’t use your configurations “as is” but would rather analyse them and try to understand which choices you made - but then again, this kind of reverse engineering may be a challenge in itself)
Every time I need a new articulation/technique I’ll try to figure out how to implement it most efficiently/elegantly, either with a midi region keyswitch or with an expression map.
I agree the support in this forum is amazing!
And thank you for your support on the keyswitches!
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Thanks @Nickie_Foenshauge for this example, indeed this is also an approach which could be used in certain situations.
@Brian_Roland your separate staff approach to manage all your keyswitches is interesting and I guess somewhat in line with my first keyswitch control ideas.
I have two questions:
-
Could you share a screenshot of how the combination of “simple drum staff” and “keyswitch staff” looks like in your more advanced percussion phrases? Just like to get an impression of the potential.
-
Given the existence of the “midi trigger region” feature as explained by @Emmanuel_Cambier and demonstrated in my above examples, would you still use a separate staff? Would the Dorico feature still be useful with not entirely simultaneous and overlapping keyswitch events?
This is very much my point… and on top of that it is still a work in progress in my case, and my config is only slowly shaping up… But let’s keep in touch with our mutual VHorns progress nonetheless !
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