Suggestion: Additional Cautionary Accidentals Options

If a notehad with accidental is tied to further noteheads,
the options dialog offers to rewrite the accidental after a system break.
I would like to have the option for a repetition in every new bar, independently
from system breaks.

It appears to me that the option “show reminder for the first note” (?)
does not work correctly, it shows remider also, if it is not the first note.
(eg. bar 1 f#, bar 2 starts with g, then f - makes a natural, that ist not
needed, because it ist not the first note. if first bar f#, 2 bar starts with f,
only in this case should appear a natural.)

Sorry to take so long to reply to this.

You want an option to restate an accidental at the start of every bar for a tied note? Can you say anything more about the kind of music in which this kind of convention is used?

I don’t know which option you’re referring to when you say “show reminder for the first note”: could you perhaps switch the application to English and specify which option you mean? I’m not aware of a convention for cautionary accidentals where the note should show a cautionary accidental only if it is the first note of the following bar, but I’m willing to believe such a convention does exist: again, can you tell me in what kind of music this convention is used?

This is more or less standard in e.g. french organ editions of the last 100 years. If the music is written with key signatures, it only applies to alterned notes relative to the KS. E.g. in the key of E flat, an E natural will be tied with restated accidentals in every bar, whereas an E flat will not.

Thanks, Frank. Can you point me in the direction of some editions where I can see this for myself?

E.g. : Louis Vierne 24 pieces de Fantaisie (looking thru book 2 now, there are numerous examples, e.g. the left hand Db at the start of the 2nd page of music, page 32, 4th system… ) Messiaen’s organ music too…

Looking at the edition of the Vierne that’s available on the IMSLP, it looks to me that in fact he’s using a different scheme of accidental duration altogether, not dissimilar to the ‘Modernist’ settings that Dorico provides (which is perhaps unsurprising, given Vierne was presumably not unaware of the musical ideas of his Paris contemporaries, who espoused that style).

Having performed many of these pieces myself, I must admit I’ve never been struck by anything beyond standard accidental handling, except for the extra rule that chromatically altered notes tied across the barline, are given a restated accidental. Even naturals. Notes which are not altered are NOT given this. (see attachment.) This is actually a very good system, which also makes sight-reading chromatic music a lot easier, and I think Dorico should have a setting for it in due course.

In music without key signatures, this practise becomes simpler. All tied notes with an accidental are given a restated accidental across the barline. I just pulled out Messiaen’s Turangalila, and one is greeted multiple times by this practise already on the first page … :slight_smile:

Attached an example, taken from Bruckner 8/1, MWV Wien, Bruckner scores have a lot of this.
I like it too…

I’d like to come back to this;

Gould (2011), p. 80f supports repeating accidentals for tied notes after every barline as “acceptable” for scores - I find it useful when reading study editions of scores. Example: Bruckner scores MWV Wien.

Furthermore, I still think it would be cool to have the option for cautionary accidentals only for the first note in the following bar, as if there are notes between, the continuity the cautionary accidental wants to break is already broken in this case:
caut-accidentals.tiff (49.1 KB)
May be this is no documented standard, but I think it can be useful in making clear scores.

Could those things be added some time?

That’s intriguing. My copy says that it “burdens the score with many extra accidentals and is not recommended”.

I was referring to the very next page, “recommended-acceptable in score” example, acceptable, because of “facilitating the vertical reading”.
It helps if due to a very condensed layout it turns out possible to take ties for slurs and vice versa.
In Eulenberg 8057 (Götterdämmerung) therefore - without accidentals - clearness requires them to put every slur bent upwards, every tie bent downwards. This burdens the score with a lot of collisions of ties with the system lines.

But ok. I found it only in the Bruckner scores. So maybe it is really not of great importance.

I would like to see some additional options too. For example, I’d really like to see a setting to have Dorico ignore bar rests or multibar rests when calculating Cautionary Accidentals. In this example I would always put a cautionary natural on the F:

For multibar rests this could certainly be a bit tempo and time dependent, so being able to set a maximum number of bars for a multibar rest before resetting any cautionary accidental calculation would be useful.

Another “accidental” issue is how rests affect modernist accidentals.

Dorico seems to ignore rests when deciding two notes at the same pitch are “adjacent” and therefore the second one doesn’t need an accidental. Gould doesn’t seem to say anything specific about this, but Stone’s book on engraving says it is wrong.

Gould makes the valid point that cautionary accidentals don’t play nice with modernist accidentals, since they leave the reader wondering if the accidentals really are “modernist” or “traditional.” So writing “F# rest F natural” to override Dorico’s idea that the second F would be sharp is potentially creating confusion, not removing it. Hiding the F natural since it is only there to give the correct playback is living dangerously, if you might edit the music later and it becomes mandatory, not cautionary.

Refering to the middle examle in the snapshot pianoleo posted above

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=190461#p1006357

(Gould book, cautionary accidental at the begining of new system, so you dont have to page back for the pitch)

  • didn’t this one exist as an option in Dorico? I thought so, but I can’t find the place to switch it on.

No, at the moment Dorico doesn’t have an option to show cautionary accidentals at the start of the system (accidental calculation is currently all carried out before Dorico knows where the system breaks will be), but this is something we plan to add in future.

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