Turns placement - from my experience, it should be between 2 noteheads, not on top.

Changing key signatures - I’d like the option to choose if it’ll affect existing notes.

Changing meter - I’d like the option to apply meter for specific bars, and not having to switch twice.

Pop over focus - when switching from Dorico, the pop over closes, and it’s annoying when switching windows to look at lyrics for example.

Sign posts - I think that by default, you should see them only un Engrave mode.


yes, and the turn is sometimes tilted:

turn tilted.png

I think there’s a limit on how far any software should go in trying to reproduce exactly what was on a printed page a few centuries old. If you really want to see that, you need a facsimile edition, not a new urtext edition!

I can’t remember ever seeing a statement that implied those two turns would be performed differently from each other.

Do you also want the 16-note beam centered on the stem like a modern tremolo in Dorico, and the obsolete design of the clef? :wink:

(Of course, a turn “over a note” and “between two notes” is a significant difference that needs to be preserved in a new edition.)


I was wondering and getting headaches, as in the old print the turn was used in different ways, on the (first?) note, between notes and also tilted. I got the impression, these subtle differences meant something…
… at least they inspire the player/musician

I don’t see how a turn, slanted or not slanted between two notes, would be played differently.

Although I am generally very much in favour of reproducing as much original detail as possible in a modern edition of an ancient score, in this case I am inclined to agree with Robert. Surely, the first of the turns is written differently from the second solely because it is constrained by the presence of the flat.


Some reference:

Or because the engraver’s hand holding the punch slipped, and nobody had time to fix it.

Of course a turn that “wiggles” the opposite way IS a different ornament - not to mention the so-called “Haydn ornament” - but those are all available in Dorico already.

qanunji, thanks a lot, this is what we need!

for some people this is science - just as for other ones it might be quarter tones…

If you play an instrument like a harpsichord f.e. ornaments keep the sound going, they enhance, give the melody a profile. It is much more than a garnish…

aside from baroque ornamentation, we use the turn a lot in Turkish music notation, placed between a doted 8th and 16th.
it’s so common, that when a player sees this pattern even without the turn sign, he’ll play it.

Actually, looking at the stave, I think the example was set in movable type, which precludes overlaps.


3 Years later - and still an interesting question:
I am copying an early print of Haydn music and I stumble over the “Haydn ornament”.
I am happy to see there is one of these ornaments in Dorico, my source does also have the Haydn ornament without the stroke. How can one “atchieve” this best? Should I just use a turn?

Haydn ornament without the stroke

If your project uses this glyph and never the glyph with the stroke through it, the easiest solution might be to open the Music Symbols editor, find that glyph, delete it, and replace it with the one you want.

Then every time you add that ornament, it’ll use the stroke-less glyph instead.

But you might have to draw it yourself, as I don’t find it in Bravura SMuFL.

It’s the oriscus, here, I think…
At least that’s the closest thing that Bravura has to a Haydn ornament without the stroke.

Thanks Leo, right on spot! I’ve been looking for “ornament”, not “symbol”. God, this is not an easy thing to browse…

Just for the record, the turn does not have to be placed over the notehead; it can be entered at the caret position.

Thank you Marc and Leo. Yes, I had scanned through the SMuFL symbols too. The oriscus looks similar. I just wonder, where this “Haydn ornament” symbol derives from. I have not read anything about it so far. Daniel somewhere acquired it and put it into the SMuFL font.
If I look at a Breitkopf orchestra print, they just use a short trill symbol: Breitkopf Haydn ornament

Bildschirmfoto 2021-01-26 um 12.37.06
In the SMuFL set I found the Wiggly Trill lines, of which I could use one for this project: