@support please: MIDI routing

JHP · July 30, 2012, 2:52pm

Hi,
Do you have a specific usecase to go with your instructions?
I have already reported this thread and your post. I did not report this as a bug but as story to the engineering department.

Because the engineering department will have a look at your instructions it would be very good if you could outline your usecase, the music that you make and way of working so the instructions stand in a practical context.

Cubase Rocks!
Thanks,
Greetings,
JHP

TabSel · July 30, 2012, 3:16pm

As a user I’d like to be able to handle

note expression midi data like controller lane data, with the midi insert fx
any vst2 automation parameter similar to monophonic midi data
colliding monophonic note expression midi/vst2 automation data via realtime consollidation
to be able to bind any expression data to a single note and don’t bother with consollidation of monophonic expression data while editing notes in time

TabSel · July 31, 2012, 9:28am

To sum it up:

I want to have the ability to edit note-context expression data via the note expression editor, as that’s what it is meant for. Note-context expression data comprises not only of a single VSTi, but any number and any combination of “targets” (=MIDI data receiving devices, VST2 automation data receiving devices, VST3.5 polyphonic automation data receiving devices)

There currently is no way to target different devices with a single notes’ expression data. The single available target device is only the MIDI tracks output destination via polyphonic VST3.5 automation data and/or monophonic MIDI CC data.

As there is no way to edit monophonic note-context vst2 automation parameter data with the note expression functionality, I use monophonic MIDI CC data and send it out a virtual MIDI port via a MIDI send, which is received by a generic remote, which remote controls Quick Controls, which are assigned to the actual vst2 automation parameter. I control VST2 automation data via Note Expression MIDI CC data. This alone IS a use case.

As the MIDI data is send out to the MIDI tracks’ destination AND the MIDI sends, I of course need a possibility to split a single notes’ expression midi data amongst the note-contexts’ targets. In order to split the midi data, I’m in need for midi processing like channel transforming based on Note Expression MIDI controller numbers.

So I’m in need for Midi insert fx processing NE midi data, too.

This is a generic use case: target multiple devices with one notes’ expression data.

Loop_Breaker · July 31, 2012, 9:37am

Thank you!!!

TabSel:

There ARE bugs, no doubt:

PLEASE TAKE YOUR TIME AND REPEAT THESE STEPS:

A) Add a new MIDI track, input unused, output unused, set track output channel to 1
B) set Cycle Locators from bar 1 to 2, double click on the MIDI track region in the cycle to create a MIDI part.
C) doubleclick this MIDI part to open the Piano Roll, draw a 16th note at the beginning of the part.
D) doubleclick this note, extend the Note Expression editor to the length of the MIDI part and draw MIDI CC data for CC#1 (Modulation)
E) the Piano Roll, back to the arrangement
F) in the Inspector for this MIDI track, insert a MIDI Monitor fx in insert slot#1, make sure the insert is turned on, switch on the MIDI monitor (M1)
G) in the Inspector for this MIDI track, insert a MIDI Monitor fx in effect slot of Send slot #1, output to none, set output channel to 0 (=all), make sure the send is turned on, post MIDI Insert, switch on the MIDI Monitor. (M2)
H) position both M1 and M2 side to side, start cycled playback

expected behaviour:
Both MIDI Monitors show the same output: Note and MIDI CC#1, both on MIDI channel #1

I) irritating Cubase behaviour:
M1 shows only Note data, while M2 shows Note and MIDI CC#1 data, both on channel #1

Now add a MIDI Transformer fx in insert slor #2:
Condition: (upper)
target:=channel, condition:=equals, param#1:=1
Action: (lower)
target:=channel, condition:=fix value, param#1:=2
Function:=transform

expected behaviour:
While M1 still shows events on channel #1, M2 shows events on transformed channel #2
correct! (what gives, after this discussion here I’m surprised…

Now edit the condition of the Transformer in 1):
Condition: (upper)
target:=channel, condition:=equals, param#1:=1, bool:=AND
target:=type, condition:=equals, param#1:=controller (added)
Action: (lower)
target:=channel, condition:=fix value, param#1:=2
Function:=transform

expected behaviour:
While M1 still shows events on channel #1, M2 shows events on transformed channel #2

II) buggy Cubase behaviour:
M2 shows events on UNtransformed channel #1 again…

3) Now again edit the condition of the Transformer in 2):
Condition: (upper)
target:=channel, condition:=equals, param#1:=1, bool:=AND
target:=type, condition:=equals, param#1:=controller[/color], bool:=AND
target:=value#1(=Controller Number), condition:=equals, param#1:=1 (added)
Action: (lower)
target:=channel, condition:=fix value, param#1:=2
Function:=transform

of course, this will yield the same wrong result as in 2)

BUT (now it gets really weird):
4) place the cursor on condition (upper) line #2 (of 3 lines), delete the line (push the “-” button)
notice how the condition targets change names! (german version here, I translate freely) Result:
Condition: (upper)
target:=MIDI-Controller-Channel, condition:=equals, param#1:=1, bool:=AND
target:=value#1(=MIDI-Controller Number), condition:=equals, param#1:=CC 1 (Modulation)[/color]
Action: (lower)
target:=channel, condition:=fix value, param#1:=2
Function:=transform

III) still M2 wrongly shows events on untransformed MIDI channel #1, even though the channel should have been transformed…

AND FINALLY (hold your breath):
5) change condition on condition (upper) line#2 to “greater or equal”, result:
Condition: (upper)
target:=MIDI-Controller-Channel, condition:=equals, param#1:=1, bool:=AND
target:=value#1(=MIDI-Controller Number), condition:=GREATER OR EQUAL, param#1:=CC 1 (Modulation)[/color]
Action: (lower)
target:=channel, condition:=fix value, param#1:=2
Function:=transform

M2 suddenly shows events on transformed MIDI channel #2!!! What the heck!?

And just for fun:
show presets for the Transformer and select “Note Expression → Remove ALL MIDI”:
notice how condition target shows “Attribute” (Eigenschaft), condition shows “Attribute Set” (Eigenschaft gesetzt), Param#1:=“Event In NoteExp”…

I can’t manually choose these targets, conditions etc… AND they even don’t work: M2 still shows MIDI CC#1 data on channel #1…

Anyone?

Same here: Win7 C6.5.1 x64

The Transformer itselfs also seamd to be buggy disregarding from the last point TabSel wrote above, Cubase crashed by playing around with VST3 funktionaity of the Transformer…

Best Regards

TabSel · July 31, 2012, 10:07am

thanks for confirming!

Now isn’t it weird?

condition Channel#:=1 gets channel# transformed.
condition channel#:=1 AND type=Controller doesn’t get channel# transformed, even though Note Expression type:=controller (and controller-number:=1…
condition channel#:=1 AND Controller-Number: >= 1 gets channel# transformed, even though 2) implies Note Expression is not of type controller…

Cubase reinvents boolean algebra!

Loop_Breaker · August 1, 2012, 11:15am

Please Developers take a look at this to:

Conman · August 1, 2012, 1:56pm

Looking more like a job for the custom shop to me.

Loop_Breaker · August 2, 2012, 6:10pm

Why?

If Steinberg would mind the usecase above, probebly a solution like I wish would allready be included (surley better than creating 16 dummy midi tracks, loopback midi ports, and GR) and Bugs like this would be realized by the Developers before releasing hopefully…

Conman · August 2, 2012, 10:17pm

Well it’s now been mentioned and I’m sure if that usercase is big enough they’ll try to capitalise on it.
If they release a buggy program for the money then they’ll surely release an improved buggy version for MORE money.

Loop_Breaker · August 4, 2012, 7:35pm

@support, is their already an answer from the developers in process?

For all users they want to control, with one note anything they want (maybe a filter in another channel), this is very interesting…

thx in advance!

Loop Breaker:

TabSel:

(Use case for altering the MIDI channel # of the VST Note Expression MIDI CC data: I use Note Expression CC data to send it out a virtual MIDI port via a MIDI send. A Generic Remote Template receives @ this virtual MIDI port and automates VST parameter. Thus, I use VST Note Expression MIDI CC data to actually automate VST Parameters, with all the benefits of having CC-data linked to the MIDI note…; as the VSTi reacts on MIDI CC too, I set up the MIDI tracks’ Inserts and Sends to be able to filter different CC/transform to different MIDI channels, so that I can control exactly which CC is sent to the VSTi and which CC is sent to the Generic Remote via the virtual MIDI port, which did not work, as VST Note Expression MIDI CC data is NOT being processed by MIDI inserts…)

He want to Edit the NE-CC-Data to send it where he want:
With the CC Number, Channel (and Midi-Interface) you can choose what the data does, like he set it up in the GR, MidiTrackOut>MidiLoopBackDriver>Generic Remote>all assinged to the >Quickcontrols in the 16 first Midi-channels in his .cpr’s.
and with those quickcontrol he can control what ever he want, and he want to use NE to control the “Quickcontrols”.

TabSel:

To sum it up:

I want to have the ability to edit note-context expression data via the note expression editor, as that’s what it is meant for. Note-context expression data comprises not only of a single VSTi, but any number and any combination of “targets” (=MIDI data receiving devices, VST2 automation data receiving devices, VST3.5 polyphonic automation data receiving devices)

There currently is no way to target different devices with a single notes’ expression data. The single available target device is only the MIDI tracks output destination via polyphonic VST3.5 automation data and/or monophonic MIDI CC data.

As there is no way to edit monophonic note-context vst2 automation parameter data with the note expression functionality, I use monophonic MIDI CC data and send it out a virtual MIDI port via a MIDI send, which is received by a generic remote, which remote controls Quick Controls, which are assigned to the actual vst2 automation parameter. I control VST2 automation data via Note Expression MIDI CC data. This alone IS a use case.

As the MIDI data is send out to the MIDI tracks’ destination AND the MIDI sends, I of course need a possibility to split a single notes’ expression midi data amongst the note-contexts’ targets. In order to split the midi data, I’m in need for midi processing like channel transforming based on Note Expression MIDI controller numbers.

So I’m in need for Midi insert fx processing NE midi data, too.

This is a generic use case: target multiple devices with one notes’ expression data.

Conman · August 4, 2012, 7:51pm

This is a generic use case: target multiple devices with one notes’ expression data.

Do you actually know what that means? If you understand midi you’ll know how that can be done and you’d also understand why it couldn’t be done and why it hasn’t been done so far.

These long explanations of what is wanted are all very well and they look mighty good. What puzzles me is anyone who knows that much must already know how to do it and be able to explain how to do it to the programmers.

Targeting multiple devices with ONE note’s expression data does look to my mind like a minefield for midi data flow. It might look more feasible (to me) in a few years time when midi is superceded by something a bit faster with a more streamlined data flow.

Loop_Breaker · August 4, 2012, 8:06pm

the thing is is that the midi transformer doensn’t work,
and if you do what tabsel write you will see how it’s possible.

You need a virtal midiport to send miditrack data, to a
generic contorl wich is connected to the
quickcontrols of the perhaps 16 dummy Midi Tracks, and with those Quickcontrol you can reach any Parameter inside the whole .cpr. once done and “saved as default”, (its hard to connect 123 GR slots to the QCs, but) still worth…

When you use note expressen wich seemd to be convertal to standart midi on a Midi-Send via the MidiTransformer Plugin in cubase, he want to send to a specific Quickcontrol (MidiSend>MidiTransformer>LoopMidi,GR,QC>anything) but the Transformer doen’t work.

Plz try TabSels Steps (as he postet here, and i’ve done, so im knowning what he is talking about):

…AND FINALLY (hold your breath):
5) change condition on condition (upper) line#2 to “greater or equal”, result:
Condition: (upper)
target:=MIDI-Controller-Channel, condition:=equals, param#1:=1, bool:=AND
target:=value#1(=MIDI-Controller Number), condition:=GREATER OR EQUAL, param#1:=CC 1 (Modulation)[/color]
Action: (lower)
target:=channel, condition:=fix value, param#1:=2
Function:=transform

M2 suddenly shows events on transformed MIDI channel #2!!! What the heck!?

Werner_Kracht · August 6, 2012, 6:51am

Hi,

at last a short explanation from a developer.The Note-Expression data are “unpacked” after the MIDI-Inserts. So You can`t see them in the MIDI-Monitor and can’t process them in the Transformer plugin. As the CC-Note-Expression-Data inherit the channel from their “parent” - note, You can process the MIDI-Channel in the Transformer.
The Bug here is, that the VST3-Events and other functionality appear as a target in the Transformer-Plugin, which will be fixed in the next version.
No other changes planned …

Werner Kracht

Loop_Breaker · August 6, 2012, 10:54am

Thank You!

That menas that is not thought to use NE as controller for anything in the .cpr (via MidiTrack out > LoopBack > GR > QC > anything)
so the workaround needs a workaround:
MidiTrack > with NE Data > MidiSend> Loopback > Miditrack > Transformer > Loopback > GR > QC > to the “filter in another channel”

Please Steinberg Team: make AutoamtionsChannels with LFO, ENV, NOTE2Pitch, NE2Midi plugins for us, and sends… FEATURE REQUEST - Automation - #4 by Loop_Breaker - Cubase - Steinberg Forums

Loop_Breaker · August 6, 2012, 11:04am

Example: You ve got a Synthline with one MidiTrack and to synths via MIDI Send:
The two synths are summed in a groupe and their is a Filter wainting for them also controlled by the 3rd MidiSend.

Now we want to use NE to control the Cutoff of the Filter which should also be moved when the note is moved: a NE feature…

When you use TabSel’S workaround (by normal midi) just select the CC of the Event, set Midi-Track-Output to LoopBackQC, learn the LoopBackQC, and done…

Backbeat · August 6, 2012, 11:33am

I understand the usecase for modern music like Dubstep.
The music would be nothing without growl basses or fat wobble bass sounds.

The only way to archive this is to control a synth and Insert FX together with midi macros.

For example I take a growl FM8 sound from Skrillex.
He has done this sound with Ableton Live and Native Instruments FM8 and some FX plugins.
Ableton Live has the ability to map a lot of midi controllers to one knob to control them.
You can select the range of the parameters and the direction of midi cc (1->127 or 127->1).
This is the only way to get a living bass sound.
You play a note and change the sound completely.
One knob controls the LFO for the Filterwobble, 2 Parametric EQs that move in opposite ways, distortion of FX Plugin etc.
This Mapping can also be done with Kore 2 Midi Macros.
It is like the Quick Controls in Cubase in an extended way.
Here is a description of the Macro Controls in Ableton:

Map Mode 7:13 for example.

It would be great to see Controller Macros for Quick Controls like in Ableton Live or in Kore 2.
These Quick Controls must then be available in the Note Expression Tab and we have Controller Heaven

Loop_Breaker · August 6, 2012, 7:02pm

and do you don’t think an extra Channel-Type (the Fader is the equal to the “Macro-Knob”) for Automation, which you can send to multiple (maybe 8) “QuickControls”?
and insert for example an LFO, Note>Automation, Env…

Loop_Breaker · August 8, 2012, 7:46pm

Some other use-cases:

TabSel · August 9, 2012, 2:15pm

Thanks Werner, had been in holiday.

If you repeat the steps I mentioned above, you’ll notice that the transformer in a midi insert allows you to alter the Channel of the MIDI note (parent), and the VST expression MIDI CC data independently, but erroneous.

Loop_Breaker · August 10, 2012, 11:32pm

Do somebody know, why such things aren’t already integrated?.
There are so many very nice features. you can control with the QuickControls ANYTHING you want:
Why you can’t reach QuickControls via NoteExpression?
you can’t use a Midi-Track to control a Automation (Quickontrols can:
Workaround: Miditrack>LFO
Output>LoopMidi
LoopMidi>GR
128 GR slots > 16 MidiTracks = 128 Quickcontrols for Workaround.
once done:
Just select the CC (Transformer) and on learn on the corresponding QC slot (CC9 = 2nd MidiTrack /1.st QC Slot) what you want to control…
done.)

So we can put Automation in Events, use plugins and so on.
Now we`ve got NoteExpression and have to buy for evrything a own plugin to use the ful feature set of the sequencer. But i have already many plugins i want to use…

There is a Device Pannel we could learn on the .cpr
what is when we use more than 8 inserts, it could look better,
what is when more than 5 VSTi should reached with one track?

please