Surround 5.1, 7.1, Atmos, Ambisonics?

Steinberg Lounge
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Mission:

I am composing for theatre. Child’s Musical with a twist. Popular cinematic orchestral and cinematic sound. No Pit orchestra. I have an interested Pro Theatre, but each theatre will have a different setup.

I have a capable 5.1 Home Studio 18ft x 12 ft. It’s wood and Insulated. My System is a Tannoy Reveal Surround System - the originals, and a capable Surround Amp. In the theatre the Mid channel is reserved for vox.

I want my music to be very immersive and I am craving a third dimension. I need a speaker(s) above my head, in my sweet-spot. I have some decent small ones. My roof is not cable of having a 17lb monitor above. It’s not high enough at 8ft.

The goal is not to create a finished product here in my studio. Later there will be mastering. What I need is a reasonable “Facsimile” of a hemispherical space. No perfection is sought. This is first base composition.

I have bought a 7.1 Amp. This means I can use two additional outputs - probably overheads.

I really don’t know to much about Atmos or Ambisonics, but as I think I understand it, Atmos is more modern.

I think that the older system of 2.1, 5.1 etc was speaker based, and Ambisonics and Atmos use Algorithms to deliver a sound to a specific locality within a 3 dimensional Grid. Atmos uses “Beds” which might be some kind of sonic group - like “Strings”, or “Giant Sea Monster”.

Are Ambisonics and Atmos software mutually compatible? Would you use them both?

I think I understand that a composer can work in different formats and then Cubase can regangilate the positronutrides ectrically, the whole piece then delivering “Bed Channels”. Which I think are something like musical spots or 3D locations one can manipulate in xyz dimensions.

I will need to:

  • Take a stereo source and covert it to mono.
  • Locate this source anywhere within a Hemisphere (think London Planitarium)
  • Manipulate these sources, spin them around, move then side-to-side, or in anyway i choose.

Obviously Cubase’s Multipanner is a superb tool to help with this.

I also have Waves Surround Package. This package was once £1300 but is now as ancient as a box of matches. It consists of around 30-50 tools which I don’t understand too good. I think it was written for Ambisonics?

Have I got some kind of workable idea here? Do I understand correctly? Are there sources where I could learn?The excellent Dom Sigales has an intro video here, but I think I need baby step concepts first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixY6IPGzOxY&t=24s

All opinions interesting…
Z

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Normally 7.1 is without ceiling speakers.

Not really.

Bed channels are fixed to its positions. They are the bed where you place the signals that should move or have a changeable position in the mix.

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I found this guy - very informative. https://www.youtube.com/@AlteraSound

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Oh no, not Alterra. #DrowningSimulator. Wait, it is written with one “r”, then it’s okay I guess.

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I think it’s better to think of it as channel-based. You pan your source signals into channels. In different standards the various channels go to specific speakers.

A “bed” is a collection of channels which go to a set of speakers that have a predefined location in space. You can basically think of a 5.1.2 bed as a regular 5.1 surround path with two extra height channels. Same basic concept practically speaking. What is in those channels is up to you. Could be a monster, could be a set of strings, could be a monster playing the cello.

The “new” component is the “object” which instead of existing in a channel that is tied to a speaker exists as a signal with x, y, z coordinates. Those coordinates are then read and the playback system decides what channels to send that signal to. Objects can be mono, or they can be more than one channel grouped together.

Honestly, I think your understanding is so rudimentary that your best bet is to collaborate with a mix engineer with experience, if possible. I understand that you want to make localization of sound a part of the composition process, but it’s probably best to just view it as composition and then deal with sound design and mix separately.

But to expand slightly; you can mix in a larger format that is somewhat flexible, and then you can down-mix to lower/other formats. For immersive I’m not sure what format would be best suited to make sure you can translate to and from other formats, perhaps MPG-H?

I would actually think it would make sense to survey theaters to see what systems are available, how they are laid out physically, and what playback systems they support, and work backward from there. Hopefully they follow some standard that your mix engineer is familiar with.

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Thank you, for a considered reply. My understanding is certainly rudimentary I am a musician as opposed to an engineer. I just want to focus on the composing process.

Working in 5.1, the sub is usually off, at this stage as my monitors are beefy enough. The middle speaker is reserved for dialogue, so the music is effectively 4.0. This gives a two dimensional plane and I feel a strong need to bring in a 3D component.
A crazy Idea would be to use the middle channel to put a speaker above my head. This would work in my studio, but could probably give me problems down the line?
I don’t wish to make any rod for my own back, but equally i do not want to setup in such a way that will later cause difficulties. I would use the 7.1 amp if I thought it could bring in a 3d component. What would you do Mattias?
Z