Suspended cymbal crescendo to damp/mute hit BBCSO or VSL SYC Spec Ed

Hi all. Been spending a bit more time with perc maps. I am looking to playpack a p/mp/mf type dynamic crescendo to f/ff with a roll combined with a hairpin to end with a damped effect. Both BBCSO and VSL SYNC SP have these articulations but for some reason the roll seems to ring out after the damp articulation is triggered. Here is an example image from just a test with VSL Susp Cymb

The thing i thought first was maybe it was something to do with playing techniques but the playing techniques lanes although showing the active technique as damp and it is being triggered correctly in the synchron player the roll still rings out. I then tried to create my own notehead for damping to trigger the sound figuring this would kind of cancel the roll and change to the damp articulation. I’ve got an example below

If you notice my first picture i also tried to add in the symbol for pt.damp from the playing techniques right hand menu thinking this would change the technique and cutoff the roll as well.

I also tried to do some cc editing back with the BBCSO mod wheel and even though i could get the damping to happen i also couldn’t get the roll to stop ringing out as well. I’m no super expert with midi programming or anything but I’m thinking is the VSL or BBC Combined Expression Map that you assign with the Perc Map creating some sort of note on/note off type situation where the change to ‘damp’ is being ignored and Dorico just thinks you’ve ended the roll but there is no message to kind of stop the ringing or something of that nature.

I guess the idea is to avoid having to use pre sampled crescendos but they dont even cutoff anyway in the VSL SYNC SE library. If anyone has any info on how to acheive this thanks in advance. I did learn alot about perc mapping trying to do this though but I guess I would prefer to be composing instead. I love this program though. With great power comes great responsibility or something like that. All the best and look forward to the next update. There’s still so much yet to do with getting some of these libraries to work percussion wise. I find it a bit confusing how there isn’t much of a link between when you load up a percussion map and then if you look at the instrument in setup mode, most of the provided playback templates just have one notehead assigned to "natural’. That’s not a criticism as most of the time that’s all you need to get the basic sound but making connections between midi note assignments in perc maps to correct playback and specific note design aspects is tough work. Most of the orchestration books have many different ways of getting the same result notationally. This doesn’t really worry me too much. It’s more about just finding the right way to control the playback. Especially as you’re in a Notation Program, you want to use the same library on the same staff,etc. In a DAW a swell to a cutoff could be acheived fairly quickly I’m sure but you cant hand someone with a cymbal and a stick a cubase file unfortunately. Look forward to hearing from anyone out there. Stay stafe and all the best, Simon.

Hi. The only way I could make hairpins work with Spitfire Percussion, IIRC, was to add an expression map to the instrument (yes, both expression and percussion maps). The expression map is very simple, with CC1 and CC11 for expression and volume (or vice versa). Hope it helps!

Thanks Marc.

The CC Data is coming through and i can hear the crescendo as i do have the respective expression maps assigned to each perc map.I am hearing the crescendo but this is more of an issue of the note assigned to the roll continuing to ring out after i change to the ‘damp’ playback technique. i actually used the particualr ‘damp’ notehead inspired from your percussion project template for SFJB. i dont have that particular library though so the expression maps from John Barron’s template for BBC and the Dorico’s CC2 Velocity Xfade expression map could be adding to my problems. I tried to shorten the note length in the key editor and all kinds of things but I think i’m going to just leave my crescendo to mute idea in my score out for the moment. Sometimes you have to know when to walk away! Maybe someone has acheived this result somehow and will have the specific way to do this. Thanks for reaching out though. i learnt a hell of a lot going through your project file about you’re assigned noteheads in your percussion playing techniques section via the setup dialogue. That must have have taken you forever! Did you choose those noteheads based on the fact you only had the artics available in the percussion playing techniques setup dialogue or do you have a specific percussion document or orchestration book you made those choices on? I’m looking into maybe getting VSL Synchron Percussion and i have books such as the Adler, Behind Bars (Elaine Gould) and various other books (Solomon How to write for perc,etc). It’s all a bit overwhelming! One thing i haven’t tried yet is to try and design my own noteheads which might conform to some of these standard notation practises used in the books i have. This could also be a pretty handy skill to be able to have so you maybe don’t have to combined a separate playing technique combined with a specific playback technique also to trigger the sound you want. Still learning! Joby Burgess was just on sale too but no cash for big libraries at the moment. You can actually purchase VSL Synchron stuff in sections which is a neat option. I think they have the most artics out of the main orch percussion libraries. Cineperc is also a bit of a mammoth as well. Cheers for your help and have a great week. Thanks Simon.

I am generally using a mix of BBCSO and VSL Synchron Prime for my percussion and also had issues damping e.g. cymbals at a given point in the score after the actual hit using one of the damping articulation signs (circle with a + inside). If you look in your articulation lane you will not see any change when you add one of these signs if you use these libraries. I think the reason is that they both do not have a specific damp key which you can allocate. So you can only damp with the volume related CC’s but it is difficult to simulate a well defined damping effect with e.g. CC11 especially if you have a reverb active.

For this reason I switched to Native Instrument Symphonies Series Percussion library. This library (and also the Essentials version of it) have a damping key on A1 (in Dorico activated as A2) for most percussion instruments included. If you create an expression map for the percussion instrument and add this damp key switch to the different articulations available in this library it will work if you add a damp sign above a note as in Simyoda’s first screenshot.
In the Percussion Playing techniques for the percussion instrument you only have to add symbols for the different hits (long, short, roll etc.) available for it but you do not need to add a separate damp notehead as Simyoda tried to do. Adding a damping “note” in the score in this way also works but it more elegant to use the official damping sign in the score allocated to the key switch in the Expression Map.

The only thing I was not able to implement is to make it work by putting the damping sign after the actual “hit” note. So above the rest following the note as this is what you often see in official scores. If you do that the damping sign is ignored. So the midi signal to damp A1 (A2 in Dorico) is not send to the instrument when there is no playable note below . Maybe someone has an idea if this can be solved. It does work when you play the percussion. instrument in a DAW you press hit on C2 (C3 in Dorico) and hit the damp key and the sound is damped immediately.

I use the old VSL pre-synchron pro percussion. The B/C/D cymbals have damped samples, and I assigned one to Damp and the other to Choke. Crash cymbal has short and long options for each of rim, centre and dome (but no roll). Also created an expression map for crescs & dims.

It can be fiddly to tie up the right symbol in the score to the right playback technique in the map. I’ve created a few custom techniques along the way, e.g. for bell/edge.

Hi, this is interesting topic. Now with Iconic I’d love to implement mute/choke right after cymbal roll…

Have you checked out the Iconica percussion map? It lists all the sounds available. If there’s no choked cymbal sample, you won’t be able to do what you’re asking for here (and in the other thread. Please try and keep one question for one thread, bumping threads is often considered as bad etiquette on the forum :wink: )
[Edit] Out of curiosity, I opened Iconica sketch percussion map, and there’s no choked cymbal sample. Case closed. You’ll need to use another library or live without it :person_shrugging:

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