System break - Frame break

Is there any logic to why I can select a barline, press System Break and that barline becomes the end of the system, but Frame Break moves that whole bar to the next frame? (or sometimes creates a bar??)

Frame break doesn’t do that for me. If I select a barline, it becomes the dividing point for the frame, as expected.

Can you post an example?

It doesn’t do it for me either. Are you accidentally selecting something else, as well as the bar line?

Maybe… here is video.
Frame Break.gif

Can you redo that in such a way that we can properly see what it looks like before you add the break, please? Oh, and please turn on System and Frame Break signposts.

Sorry. Doing too many things at once…
What types of files can I put here and what is the max size? I’m sure I’ve just recorded with QT before…?
Zipped up here:
Frame Break (455 KB)

I think you’ve got an extra bar there, no? Maybe with rests removed?

That is so odd. I don’t suppose you can post the file.

Oh, and it has to be a zip.

i’ll just quote myself, seeing as this came up less than a month ago:

I hadn’t seen that a month ago and didn’t find it in any search. I’m not sure that it is logical that Dorico creates a bar in Engrave mode. It is weird having to select differently for system and frame breaks.

It is nice to see the explanation for it, thank you.

But if you select that barline and create a System Break, does Dorico behave differently?

I see your point. I never select a final barline for a system break because the system is always already broken there. I’m pleased I understand what Dorico is doing but it has no business creating bars in Engrave mode.

Regardless of your opinion, the way that Breaks work is that they push following music (in the same flow) onto the next system/frame. The manual is clear on that.

I which case can I request that frame break doesn’t create bars in Engrave mode, just breaks the frame at that point, end of flow or not.

Indeed, if anything, trying to create a frame break on the final barline of a flow just shouldn’t do anything. There are certainly other cases where Dorico just ignores an attempt to do something it doesn’t want to do (like selecting something in Engrave mode and pressing Delete).

It should just push the next flow (on the same page) to the next page.

It’s very easy to get these functions to work correctly, though: ensure you put Breaks at the start of the new frame/system, not the end of the previous frame/system.

I think it shouldn’t make a difference whether I select the start of the next flow, or the end of the previous one. I still get tripped by this occasionally. It’s counterintuitive, and ‘formally’ wrong (i.e. against Dorico philosophy) that anything gets created in Engrave mode, even if it’s just an empty bar.

As I understand it, the issue is that at the end of each Flow there is already a hidden Break (Frame or System, dependent on whether Layout Options is set to force each Flow onto a new page) that you can’t alter. If you add a break manually, there, you’re adding a break where there’s already a break. Dorico’s answer is to create an extra barline (and extra bar).

It’s only for the case where a Flow can follow on the same page.