That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

[d_archived]

@Fabio Bartolini

@djw

I didn’t know about that difference. So inside of it there can be multiple DLL files? I indeed noticed Cubase’s stock VST3 plugins are all in one file now you mention it.

Yes, that’s the reason why you usually have a single .vst3 file in place of a mono and a stereo VST2 .dll (just as an example, DMG Audio Compassion comes with a mono, a stereo and a side-chain VST2 version, but only one .vst3 file).

I learn something new every day. ^-^; But none of this affects the VST slot limit right? Could a new VST3 standard prohibit static linking…?

[GeorgeV]

Thanks Fabio,

Using the same plugins several times ie have a low amount of unique plugins is the way to go.

However, we need more info on the subject and specifically on dynamically vs statically linked plugins.

Based on what Cakewalk CTO says, now for the first time we have a number “at least 64” unique plugins statically linked.
OK in Cubase this number might be different, this a number for Sonar, not trying to compare here, trying to head somewhere.

What if statically linked plugins are preferred/replaced by dynamically linked plugins in a project?
Would that allow more unique plugins to be loaded?
Could someone state or identify which vendors are linking statically?
Is there a way to find out ourselves which of our plugins are linked statically?

[Brandy]

Fabio, thanks - good information! Yes, this is part of my workflow in bigger projects as well! Makes mixing more easy / console style using basically the same plugins. But well, most of us (at least me) are owning almost every single plugin available on the market ^^ so often - when the good part of a mix is already set up - you start to get creative, having lets say some whispering in an athmo part, so lets use one or two Soundtoys plugins here for fancy delay effects and a Waves Reel for some flanging… easily you will step over the limitation issue at some point…

Haha and yes, back to a P4 vintage system!!

[Steinberg_Archived]

@djw

But none of this affects the VST slot limit right? Could a new VST3 standard prohibit static linking…?

Beyond my knowledge, but I do believe this is out of the DAW and VST SDK control.

[Steinberg_Archived]

@GeorgeV

Based on what Cakewalk CTO says, now for the first time we have a number “at least 64” unique plugins statically linked.
OK in Cubase this number might be different, this a number for Sonar, not trying to compare here, trying to head somewhere.

I seem to recall a similar amount in Cubase, but can’t remember exactly (we also lowered the amount of slots used by Cubase already, so something might have changed… but then again, Cubase 9 has added functionality).
Will check.

@GeorgeV

What if statically linked plugins are preferred/replaced by dynamically linked plugins in a project?
Would that allow more unique plugins to be loaded?

To my understanding, definitely yes.

@GeorgeV

Could someone state or identify which vendors are linking statically?

I would need to check if someone can compile sort of a list and if publishing it is deemed ‘correct’ or not.

@GeorgeV

Is there a way to find out ourselves which of our plugins are linked statically?

Same as above: I don’t know if it’s possible using WPA or other (perhaps not THAT complex) tools.
Will check with the devs.

[GeorgeV]

Fabio,
First, I cannot thank you enough for clarifying everything up.

@Fabio Bartolini

@GeorgeV

Could someone state or identify which vendors are linking statically?

I would need to check if someone can compile sort of a list and if publishing it is deemed ‘correct’ or not.

I don’t see anything wrong here.
At least I wouldn’t “blacklist” a statically linked plugin. I know I can use many statically linked ones (around 64) in a project.
But OK. What if we do it they way around. If someone can identify the vendors who link dynamically.
We all need some more info here. It would be helpful to identify the limitations and finish our projects at the end of the day.

[Brandy]

I heard using jbridge to for example bridge the UAD plugins might help because then the processes will be “outside” of Cubase.exe…

Everyone tried this yet? I do not like to go back to jbridge again (though it is an brilliant app) - was using this for ages while waiting for 64bit versions…

[d_archived]

I would be interested in knowing the vendor list privately if one is compiled.

[Steinberg_Archived]

@GeorgeV: I don’t see anything wrong, too. But we tend to avoid ‘pointing the finger’, I just need to check with those in charge.
I get your point entirely and can relate to the need of knowing this.

@Brandy: I think that is the case, yes. IIRC, there were users that tried it and confirmed on this forum.

@djw: I don’t think there is an actual list (if yes, it’s surely incomplete), but for sure we identified some.
Let me check what we can do here.

[GeorgeV]

@Fabio Bartolini

@GeorgeV: I don’t see anything wrong, too. But we tend to avoid ‘pointing the finger’, I just need to check with those in charge.
I get your point entirely and can relate to the need of knowing this.
…
@djw: I don’t think there is an actual list (if yes, it’s surely incomplete), but for sure we identified some.
Let me check what we can do here.

Thanks again Fabio. Your efforts are highly appreciated.

I suppose when the limit is reached, no unique plugins can be loaded. Is this the case? Is this regardless dynamic vs static?

[Brandy]

A list - or “some kind of a list” would definitive be VERY helpful - as someone mentioned - we all need to finish work, catch deadlines etc… I am currently mixing one full album per week over here. Since this “issue” is on the one hand side one of the ugliest issues we experienced through the last couple of years it is fortunately “relatively” easy to handle if we have some more detailed knowledge regarding these plugins. If that list can not be made public I would appreciate to access it via PM or something… though when a list would be public some plugin developer might have some motivation to modify their plugins

But I am not sure if I can confirm the possibility to still load more plugins as long as it is not an unique plugin and already in the session… What I did is copy/paste (via drag n drop) instances of plugins, which seems to work - selecting them in the plugin menue might not load them. But I had issues with that “workaround” since these “drag n dropped” plugins might be missing the other day …

[Brandy]

@GeorgeV

Thanks again Fabio. Your efforts are highly appreciated.

Absolutely! Thanks a lot!!

[Steinberg_Archived]

Thanks
Let me check again the various entries on the subject and post back tomorrow… it’s a while since I worked on that and can’t access that system from home. Will post back.

[alexis]

@Raphie

I don’t think there is any other way to reverse engineer or deduct if plugins load or not, besides just testing them one by one.
The good news is you only have to worry about it once it happens and you only have to focus on the 3rd pty plugins you actually used in that project.

Another way to look at it is not to prepopulate templates with plugins and empty channels which you don’t use.If you create templates with 32 channels and each channel has already your favorite EQ, compressor, channelstrip, VU meter and gain knob loaded, that’s already 160 plugins before you even get to work (and half might just sit there not being used)

It’s an annoyance, but by adapting the way one works, it can quite easily be avoided

If they are inactivated, do they contribute to the total count/limitation?

[GeorgeV]

@alexis

@Raphie

Another way to look at it is not to prepopulate templates with plugins and empty channels which you don’t use.If you create templates with 32 channels and each channel has already your favorite EQ, compressor, channelstrip, VU meter and gain knob loaded, that’s already 160 plugins before you even get to work (and half might just sit there not being used)

It’s an annoyance, but by adapting the way one works, it can quite easily be avoided

If they are inactivated, do they contribute to the total count/limitation?

I don’t know if inactivated plugins contribute to this limitation. And still, but less importantly, we don’t know the maximum number of unique plugins with dynamically linked libraries but anyway.

But just to clarify something once again, the limitation is regarding about the number of unique plugins. If a specific EQ is loaded in every single channel ie 32 times it will take only one slot. The problem occurs when every channel has different/unique plugins loaded. And if those plugins are all statically linked the limit is reached at (around) 64 unique plugins.

Worst case scenario is to have at least say
10 unique VST instruments (loaded x times - doesn’t matter)
10 unique EQs
10 compressors
5 reverbs
5 delays
5 distortions
5 filters
10 modulations
4 other plugins
= 64 unique modules

ALL with statically linked libraries.

That’s when the limit is reached and plugins disappear or refuse to load or whatever…

[JJDekker]

That was not my understanding, the problem is that multiple instances of certain plugins taking up multiple slots opposed to others where multiple instances take one slot.

[GeorgeV]

@Raphie

That was not my understanding, the problem is that multiple instances of certain plugins taking up multiple slots opposed to others where multiple instances take one slot.

I don’t have the knowledge to be precise on how everything works. But based on what I read, yes certain plugins (statically linked) take multiple slots but multiple instances of the same plugin do not take more slots since the dll is only loaded once
quoting Cakewalk’s CTO
‘In SONAR you would have to have at least about 64 unique plugins that statically linked before you saw a problem, so pretty unlikely I would think. Also multiple instances of the same plugin do not count since the dll is only loaded once.’

More info
quoting Presonus
there is a limitation on the Windows platform of how many DLLs depending on the statically-linked C runtime library
…
Depending on how many DLLs are used by the host application itself the number of additional 3rd party plug-ins that can be loaded varies.
The problem is made worse by plug-in developers also using the static version of the C runtime library.
Studio One 3.3 has been built with Visual Studio 2015 and dynamically link to the new Universal C runtime library.
This significantly increases the number of additionally loadable DLLs.

[JJDekker]

I read it differently:

• Windows/daw supports 64 static SLOTS
• This means 64 unique plugins
• When using multiple instances of the same plugins, some only take 1 slot, while others take a slot per instance.
  Hence it’s difficult to say when you hit a ceiling.

[GeorgeV]

@Raphie

I read it differently:

• Windows/daw supports 64 static SLOTS
• This means 64 unique plugins
• When using multiple instances of the same plugins, some only take 1 slot, while others take a slot per instance.
  Hence it’s difficult to say when you hit a ceiling.

Hey Raphie. As previously stated I do not have the knowledge, maybe you are right.
We all need a tech guru or Fabio to chime in and clear things up

[Steinberg_Archived]

The problem is that it’s not possible to define the behaviour exactly.
Dynamically linked plug-ins should be always loaded, but once the limit is actually reached, it gets temperamental and at times you can’t add any more plug-ins (or can add only specific ones).
There are plug-ins that use an abnormal amount of slots.
Some VSTs do not release the FLS slots when they are removed from the project - some don’t even after closing the project, meaning it is necessary to restart the application to free them up. This also means that if you load a project after closing one containing this kind of plugs, you effectively start with less slots available (possibly the reason why some reported that after quitting Cubase, a project showing the issue opens with all inserts active)
Additionally some slots might be taken by drivers or components (e.g. our UR series) or VSTs on starting the application.

This is actually way more complex than I remembered, we have several tasks related to it, it would take a week to go through all of them. Let alone fully understand them