My dear friend composers, as you I am struggling everyday year after year to improve my orchestral template. This post to share you my settings and an audio to demonstrate the results using the first movement of the 5th symphony of Beethoven with liberty on the tempo and out of the box with no CC tweaks. This is the best of my templates so far. I will let you comment and possible improvement.
The general architecture :
I am using Unifyfrom PluginGuru to host my VST, midi FX, inserts and reverb : this to ensure that when I am applying this playback template all sends and inserts will be taken into account.
I am using theSpitfire Symphony Orchestra for woodwinds, brass & percussions - Abbey Road Strings ensemble for the Strings - All close mics.
The expression maps come from Art Conductor designed for Dorico from Babylonwaves (they are excellent) - I used the extended versions including playing techniques (cf Art Conductor Manual)
I added for each a midiFX automating the CC21 (vibrato) at bar level with a curve with a bell shape steady increase, and fast decrease at the very end of the bar (CC Rider midi plugin native in Unify)
I am using the AirStudio Reverb from Spitfire with the default settings proposed for each instrument (aux bus) and send the close mic. I panned the close mic to match the panning of the AirStudio and the general orchestra instruments positioning.
I added for each instrument a Neutron 5 pluging from Izotope (before reverb Send). I launched a learn procedure on fortissimo passages for each and selected the instrument presets by default. The difference with and without Neutron 5 is impressive : it add depth, clarity and extra punch.
I balanced the overall volume output of each instrument to match the balance of the orchestra (I matched my template with the audio recording of the ET Flying Theme of John Williams) : piccolos & flutes (-9dB), Oboes (0db), Clarinets (0dB), Bassoons (0dB), Horns (-3dB), Trumpets (+6dB), Trombones (-6dB), Timpani (-3dB), Harp (-6dB), Strings (0dB).
Benefits :
you can save it as project template and playback template : you do not have to bother with the Dorico mixer and sends (empty) - all settings (midi FX, inserts and sends) are in place
you can make adjustments to your taste (levels, reverbs, midi FX) : it will be saved with the project - so no issue when loading the project again : everything will be as you left it when closing / saving the project (the issue I have with VEPRO)
Your audio export is already very clean and convincing (a little mastering may be still required for loudness adjustment according to your taste)
Drawbacks :
This template is very huge, memory and CPU intensive : it needs a strong hardware configuration (works perfectly on my MacBook Pro M3 Max 128Gb of RAM - but you know the cost of such computer… crazy expensive but the best investment I made so far)
The template takes 20 minutes to load (!), mainly due to the fact that Neutron 5 is not 100% Apple Silicon and need to run Rosetta. I have about 50 instances of Neutron in the template. My version is 5.1 and we can expect the future release will be 100% Apple Silicon - But again Neutron 5 makes the difference in terms of sound quality. Without Neutron, the template takes 5 minutes to load in comparison. So I use to launch my template and grab a coffee and wait.
DEMO with the first movement of the 5th Symphony Of Beethoven
thank you my friend for listening and for your feedback. Can you develop ? I would be very interested to have your insight to improve my template. Articulations ? Relative levels ?
I believe what @Pietzcker meant by unorthodox was the tempo. It’s about 1/2 speed. If I’m not mistaken (no score in front of me), Beethoven gave an explicit metronome mark.
Thank you very much : understood. Yes indeed this is my interpretation and my taste. Not 108 bpm for half note. But what about the audio rendering ? Do you find it convincing ?
My dear friend composers, as you I am struggling everyday year after year to improve my orchestral template. This post to share you my settings and an audio to demonstrate the results using the first movement of the 5th symphony of Beethoven. This is the best of my templates so far. I will let you comment and possible improvement.
The general architecture :
I am using Unifyfrom PluginGuru to host my VST, midi FX, inserts and reverb : this to ensure that when I am applying this playback template all sends and inserts will be taken into account.
I am using theSpitfire Symphony Orchestra for woodwinds, brass & percussions - Abbey Road Strings ensemble for the Strings - All close mics.
The expression maps come from Art Conductor designed for Dorico from Babylonwaves (they are excellent) - I used the extended versions including playing techniques (cf Art Conductor Manual)
I added for each a midiFX automating the CC21 (vibrato) at bar level with a curve with a bell shape steady increase, and fast decrease at the very end of the bar (CC Rider midi plugin native in Unify)
I am using the AirStudio Reverb from Spitfire with the default settings proposed for each instrument (aux bus) and send the close mic. I panned the close mic to match the panning of the AirStudio and the general orchestra instruments positioning.
I added for each instrument a Neutron 5 pluging from Izotope (before reverb Send). I launched a learn procedure on fortissimo passages for each and selected the instrument presets by default. The difference with and without Neutron 5 is impressive : it add depth, clarity and extra punch.
I balanced the overall volume output of each instrument to match the balance of the orchestra (I matched my template with the audio recording of the ET Flying Theme of John Williams) : piccolos & flutes (-9dB), Oboes (0db), Clarinets (0dB), Bassoons (0dB), Horns (-3dB), Trumpets (+6dB), Trombones (-6dB), Timpani (-3dB), Harp (-6dB), Strings (0dB).
Benefits :
you can save it as project template and playback template : you do not have to bother with the Dorico mixer and sends (empty) - all settings (midi FX, inserts and sends) are in place
you can make adjustments to your taste (levels, reverbs, midi FX) : it will be saved with the project - so no issue when loading the project again : everything will be as you left it when closing / saving the project (the issue I have with VEPRO)
Your audio export is already very clean and convincing (a little mastering may be still required for loudness adjustment according to your taste)
Drawbacks :
This template is very huge, memory and CPU intensive : it needs a strong hardware configuration (works perfectly on my MacBook Pro M3 Max 128Gb of RAM - but you know the cost of such computer… crazy expensive but the best investment I made so far)
The template takes 20 minutes to load (!), mainly due to the fact that Neutron 5 is not 100% Apple Silicon and need to run Rosetta. I have about 50 instances of Neutron in the template. My version is 5.1 and we can expect the future release will be 100% Apple Silicon - But again Neutron 5 makes the difference in terms of sound quality. Without Neutron, the template takes 5 minutes to load in comparison. So I use to launch my template and grab a coffee and wait.
DEMO with the first movement of the 5th Symphony Of Beethoven
First part
Second part
Thank you my friend for giving so much detailed feedbacks : this is very valuable. So much work still to do. I will not waste your time anymore.
Aside from the interpretation, the mix seems a bit unnatural. I feel each instrument is a singular point in the soundscape with little to no overlap. The brass sounds squeezed and forced (compression problem perhaps). It’s OK if you think it’s OK, but it isn’t quite my taste.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. Still much work to do then. I was quite happy with the results but it seems that I do not have your ears.
Thank you. I cannot share the Dorico project as it contains the Art Conductor expression maps : I don’t want to have copyright issues with BabylonWaves for sharing their proprietary assets. Regarding the template I gave my procedure to rebuilt it to your taste. If this is about the music XML file I downloaded it on Musescore. I can understand my response is frustrating.
Thank you for your remark. Such comments make me sad because the aim of my topic was to share with the community a way to get better sounds for our mockups using plugins, in any case to compare orchestra recording with my audio mockup. It was just about the sounds quality, not about how comparable it was with the original piece. My mistake to have shared an audio of such a masterpiece (I should have use a work of my own) I agree and sad that all the focus have been taken away from my original intention of sharing what I think is an interesting approach for our audio mockups. To receive so much harsh criticisms for something I believe have still value for the community did not make my day.
I think the orchestra you’re referring to is the Portsmouth Sinfonia so at least try to get the name right when you want to write a disparaging comment.
Of course it has value, everything has value to someone, even the referenced Sinfonietta above has value. A simple tip that I use when I mock something up (and trust me, I’m no pro): get a reference recording, listen intently to the orchestration, balance, mix, room etc.
- Are the trumpets really behind the contrabasses?
Are the 1st violins really behind my left shoulder?
What is the reference point? Are you mixing from an audience perspective or from the conductor’s?
Anyway… keep at it, it’s the journey more than the destination.
Hey. Thank you for your mockup. I listened to it an like your idea of really re interpreting it. Most people won’t like it, but when you try to listen like you don’t know the interpretation with intended Tempo you might benefit a lot.
what I find problematic with all sample based libraries in Dorico (via expression map) is the lack of consistency. That has nothing to do with your template. I only heard one demo of an VSL map that sounded convincing. Unfortunately I can’t find the post.
As someone has commented I find your sound very upfront. Again: it is a really well known recording and people are used to the sound of an recording that captures the experience of an listener in an concert hall. This clearly is not wha you intended. maybe you can really show us a few bars of original music with your template.
I just wanted to share that I’m finding it harder to post in public forums lately. It can be a real downer, isn’t it? It’s so easy to get caught up in the negativity. I’ve definitely been guilty of being a bit harsh myself. But I’ve also grown a lot, and I’m still learning. So, I really hope you don’t get discouraged!
EDIT: I’ve just clicked on your profile. We have been in contact in early summer about AudioModeling expression map I still have not bought unify as you suggested. I am still on Vienna Ensemble. Comment ça va mon ami ?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am not a “pro” either, that is making a living from my music, but had the chance to have my music performed at several concert halls these past 4 years and some being recorded in studio with a full orchestra. I have still a lot to learn and that’s the benefit of music : a never ending and amazing journey for each of us. Interestingly, during the first mixing sessions of my works with great sound engineers I discovered that decisions have to be made for each movement about the right levels for each mics, panning, reverbs to fit the artistic intention. So what I am trying to say (and from what I can understand from your post) is that there are no absolute mix, at least one different reference tracks for each work according to the artistic direction you, me, we as composers, want to give to our work. Do we want sounds like a concert hall, a John Williams soundtrack, something excentric, etc.
As yourself perfectly highlighted it : it depends of the audience perspective and our taste as musician. Concerts and Recordings are two different storis. As nyou certainly studied Mozart symphony works, he had a particular writing for the Violins I and Violins II section because in a classical orchestra of this period Violins I were on the left and Violins II were on the right : it gave him some artistic possibilities. In modern orchestra both Violins sections are usually on the left but this options are not gone for us : we could ask a different floor map of the orchestra to the manager. Timpani can be centered or positioned on the far right. Hans Zimmer put the Bass Drum very close for massive percussive effect. Listening to John Williams track and comparing with the score, flutes levels have been lowered in ET Flying Theme, Celesta in Harry Potter Hedwig theme has been amplified to compete with the orchestra… Live symphony concerts is another story but the conductor can make adjustments during the rehearsals (it id a part of his job) but from what I know poor orchestration will always gives poor music.
So my point with this topic was not about an absolute reference track that does not exist but to share with the community about plugins I discovered and used that gave me a better control and improved the quality of my sound for each mockups I produced.
I wish you inspiration for your works to come and success. I think we both enjoy composing music very much. I am finishing a symphony movement and it finally made my day.
Hi my friend, thank you for your support and nice post. You are right, expression maps have their limitations and could match a certain tempo and be dumb with another tempo because I guess of the conditional routings. So midi edition and CC tweaks are absolutely required for full control. Regarding the sound, you perfectly spotted the intention : I choose in this new template to have a studio sound, front, and not a concert hall as I used to have before with MIRPro 3d. I have one or two concerts planned for 2026 and definitely I will not use this new template to check the consistency because it does not reflect the orchestra balance in a concert hall. So far NNPE 4 with MIR gave me a good consistency check for my previous concerts and the difference between the mockup and the actual concert was minimal.
Regarding the forum, I did not post until today and was surprised by the negativity. If I am in this forum is to learn from others (and we have a lot to learn) to perfect my craft. So I am not yet discouraged (not my nature) but was deeply affected.
Regarding AudioModelling, I really appreciate our private conversations early summer and our sharing of experiences : it was enlightening. I gave up AudioModelling so far but I know you are a great master of it.
Hopefully, I started this morning movement of a symphony work and it is almost finished : this is how I make my day great whatever can happen. So “je vais très bien mon ami!”. I wish you all the best with your compositions and keep in touch !
It is very simple to set up a live stage in Dorico to reflect different configurations.
That said…
I admire your efforts, but personally, I think you are on a fool’s errand (perhaps in search of a holy grail?). For all your effort the results really do not sound very good.
I still have not bought unify as you suggested. I am still on Vienna Ensemble. Comment ça va mon ami ?