tied note selection

I’m trying to select the quarter-note on the second bar to apply a playing technique just on that. For some reason, whenever I input the playing technique, it goes to the start of the first bar. Am I missing something? How do I apply the technique just to that?

Double-click on the stave, not the note, to invoke the caret. Then add the playing technique.

In Write mode, you can’t select individual noteheads within tie chains - that’s because Dorico considers tied notes to be a single note. Instead, you can show the caret by double-clicking the staff or by pressing Shift-N, and input playing techniques wherever the caret is positioned.

Dorico really hates mouse users, doesn’t it? :laughing:

The same is true whether you select notes by clicking them or navigating using the arrow keys - a tie chain is a single entity. Arguably when it comes to activating the caret, double-clicking is easier as you can double-click within a tie chain; pressing Shift-N activates the caret at the start of the current selection, meaning you then have to move the caret manually to wherever in the tie chain you want to input items/split the chain etc.

(I did link to inputting playing techniques with the popover - you can of course input them with the mouse using the panel.)

I just think it would be quicker to be able to select the note with the mouse and type shift+p, rather than having to also move the caret in addition to that.

This has come up many, many times. There are of course times where Dorico’s treatment of tied notes requires an extra step, but the benefits outweigh the weaknesses.

I think the Dorico team should give users the option of choosing. There are many things such as this, as well as the force duration function, that do not apply to the kind of music that I work with. And I really appreciate how flexible dorico is in many ways, but this is one way in which I think Dorico could be more flexible. I would just like an option to disable it.

You are selecting “the note”
This whole issue seems to me to be a conceptual divide between how music sounds and how it looks.
A note that lasts 5 seconds will be written differently according to the tempo and meter of the piece. But it’s still one note lasting 5 seconds.
Surely it is not too difficult to double-click in the place you want to add a pt or a dynamic?

johnabram is right. It’s not just a matter of adding an option. It’s a fundamental concept for how Dorico thinks of tied notes.

And it’s also true that the solutions are so fast, once you learn them.

If there is a shift of playing techniques at some point throughout the note, then there is no real divide between how the music sounds and how the music looks. At that point, the tie means that the note should not be re-articulated, but it will sound different. I’m not sure it’s the same note at that point. It’s the same pitch, but definitely not the same sound.

The solution does not seem that simple to me. Say you are writing an orchestra piece that has hundreds of these? That is in fact my next project.

And Dorico has quite the response time, especially compared to other programs. I can for sure guarantee that Dorico takes more input time than other programs I use. It may need less tweaking once it’s inputted (which is the whole appeal of Dorico for me), but that is being offset by little things like this. Also, I think ties should work as an on/off switch rather than having one button to create ties and another to delete them.

I don’t see the advantage of the current system besides being able to input notes that go beyond the barline in one step. But I think this this is getting cancelled out by all of the problems it creates if you want to tweak it. Also, if the piece in question is unmetered (like the slice I have), then inputting the note across the barline in one step does not work, because you have to have the note there first (unless you are going to use the grid, which is not musically intuitive because music is traditionally read as note values, not as slashes on a grid).

And as I am composing a piece, I am likely to make changes many times. So it is worth making a case for me. Daniel has even talked about wanting Dorico to have several “modes” based on what kind of music one is writing, and I think that’s an excellent idea to tailor the behavior of the program based upon the needs of the user.

What about tied notes that go over the middle of the bar, or go through multiple beats, or are long but start on the second quaver/eighth of a bar? The reduction in keystrokes is potentially large in each of these situations.

Right, but even in traditional notation, you would have to draw these notes one at a time. And again, I understand that these things potentially save time for other users, but they are not worth it for me. That is why I am proposing an option to be able to work differently.

In fact, I have no issues with being able to input the notes across barlines, I just want to be able to tweak things faster.

Sure. My point is that you seem to be overlooking the fact that it’s perfectly possible to think of tied notes as single notes. As a pianist, I don’t parse individual notes of tie chains - I look at where the note starts and where it’s going, e.g. when it stops or phrases into another note. As an arranger and copyist, I do exactly the same thing.

It’s perfectly intuitive as long as you leave your preconceptions at the door.

It really depends on the kind of music. I would still prefer the other way, as even having to repeatedly input note values and ties would be faster than the current way if you need to make lots of tweaks. Because your hand would not have to move around the keyboard back and forth. I know the dorico team have thought a lot about this, and it shows.

Your project sounds interesting! I’m still curious about a sound changing during the course of a note. If it isn’t re-articulated I would think it is the same note. Could you tell me more about it?

I can’t speak for the OP, but this is common with bowings. Though again, it’s easy to add them using the caret.

Sure! There are many ways in which a sound can change during a note. Examples include suddenly or gradually removing a plunger or harmon mute from a held note on a brass instrument. This is often done without re-articularing the note. Or changing the position of a bow (sul pont/tasto/ ord), or a flutist or singer changing vowels whilst holding a note, or adding/removing vibrato from a held note, there are too many examples to list here.

My current project is a string quartet that involves many such things (including vowel changes for the players who also have to sing). Additionally, I created a playing technique which looks like a triangle in order to indicate to the player that they have to cue or be cued by another player. Most of these fall on held notes. The music is mostly unmetered, but sometimes, only one layer is playing metered music whilst the others are playing unmetered music (meaning that one single player counts for the whole quartet). I have many instances in which the single player who is playing metered music must cue another player on a specific beat of a held note.

This is a clear example in which not being able to select a specific beat tied to another one is strictly detrimental. Ditto for the force duration function. I love the fact that Dorico is unmetered by default. This is clearly an advantage over its competitors. But I also don’t like stubborn dorico is other respects.

Thanks for explaining, I understand the difficulties. It seems trickier to do what you need in unmetered music.
I may be misunderstanding something here, but it occurs to me that it may be expedient to enter everything without ties (using force duration) before you enter lyrics and other instructions. Put the ties in last. It would be helpful to be able to have force duration turned on by default. Not sure if there’s a plan for that, though.