Finale’s presentation works well:
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The only thing I don’t like so much in the Finale transposition dialog is the long list of chromatic intervals: I prefer to have the number of steps and the quality separated, as they are in Dorico.
Apart from that, I think Finale gets it right. First the direction (up or down), then the magnitude, with the number of octaves clearly being part of the magnitude of the interval. Also, octaves and unisons are listed separately, meaning that there’s no problem having a diminished octave but not having a diminished unison.
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I was always taught that one describes the interval between two notes using the lower note as reference. So, the vexed C to C flat interval is clearly some form of unison, but it is an augmented one: C flat ( the lower note and point of reference) is augmented to get to C.
I would say that would be true if the two notes were simultaneous (a chord); but two notes, one after the other, would measure the interval from first note to second.
You don’t have to choose a reference note: an interval is the distance between two notes. If I want to calculate the distance between London and Manchester, do I have to choose one of them as reference?
You can’t augment a note. Augment means “make bigger”. It does not mean “make higher”.
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Agree that an interval is a measure of distance; but the naming is dependent on the the spelling. I know you know this - just being thorough…
I was taught that a diminished unison is a melodic interval, belonging to the same class of melodic intervals as for example all dissonances that are enharmonically equal to consonances (e.g. dim 2, aug 3, aug 7, dim 9, etc). These melodic intervals result from voice movement, and are used (and make sense) mostly in that context. Also they do not invert in the same way, they do not make up chords and they are not used for transposition - that’s what harmonic intervals do. A diminished octave is a melodic interval, just like the diminished unison. Perhaps my teacher was wrong too.
That’s a muddle. A melodic interval is an interval between two notes played in sequence. A harmonic interval is an interval between two notes played at the same time. That’s it, clear and simple: any interval, be it diminished, major, perfect, whatever, can be either melodic or harmonic.
A harmonic interval only has magnitude. The magnitude is defined by a number (unison, 2nd, 3rd…) and a quality (perfect, major, minor, augmented or diminished).
A melodic interval has magnitude and direction. The direction is either ascending or descending. C followed by the C# just above it is an ascending augmented unison. C followed by the Cb just below it is a descending augmented unison.
In order to specify a transposition, you must specify both magnitude and direction: that’s equivalent to a melodic interval.
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A simpler way to think of augmented unisons:
Whether I ‘raise the roof’ or ‘lower the floor’ by a minor 2nd, the perfect unison resulting will always be augmented. It means to make bigger.
Thus, C-C# and C-Cb are both augmented unisons.
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Sorry- once a unison is altered, its not longer perfect, of course😉 Typo. A perfect unison can’t be diminished. In C to Cb, the ‘b’ doesn’t make the perfect unison smaller.
With written intervals, which this discussion seems to be all about, the term diminished refers to the upper/second note of the two being lowered by a semitone but still appearing on the same line or space (eg G to G♭, F♯ to F♮). With the other perfect intervals (4th, 5th and octave), a flat in front of the second note changes what was a perfect interval into a diminished interval. Unison is a perfect interval. Why should the rule suddenly change for unison? The two notes are still written on the same line or space. The flat diminishes a written perfect interval, so it’s a diminished unison. Admittedly, unison is a special case because the sound of the second note in a diminished unison is moving away from the reference note rather than towards it so the sounding distance between them is being augmented but, for the purpose of being consistent in the usage of a term when applied to written notes, diminished unison is valid. Confusing maybe, but valid, perhaps in the same way that an economist uses the term “negative growth”.
C - C♯, when considered in that order (which is the customary method, taking the first note specified as the reference note), means that the written perfect unison of C to C is being augmented by raising the second note by a semitone. Similarly, C to C♭, when considered in that order, means that the written perfect unison of C to C is being diminished by lowering the second note by a semitone. Or, if you prefer, being augmented in a downward direction. If the direction is not specified with written intervals, “augmented” implies upward direction.
When dealing only with sound, I prefer to either specify the notes by name (even such things as A♯ to F♭, if I want to exercise the other person’s brainpower) or simply describe the sound I want to hear (semitone/half-step, major/minor 3rd, perfect 5th, etc., specifying above or below) because in this situation it really does not matter how it is written - we are dealing with the sound, not a written representation of the sound. A semitone will always sound like a semitone irrespective of how it is written.
Regardless how purists on both side want to think about it, Dorico has a simple (if not the very simplest) way to transpose. All the arguing over theory is not going to change what Dorico can do, and I think the Development Team has plenty to go on to make the process simpler when the time is right.
Too much overthinking here. The direction of the change, i.e., from C-C# or C-Cb doesn’t matter. Augmented simply means make bigger, diminished means to make smaller. Whether I’m going from C-C# or C-Cb, in both cases I am increasing the size of the perfect unison, thereby augmenting it. A perfect unison, or prime, is really an interval of a note with itself. That’s why it can’t be diminished. It might be easiest just to simply call them chromatic (C-C#; C-Cb) or diatonic (C-Db; A-Bb) half steps. As has been said, labels have to do with written notes; sound-wise, who really cares? A minor second-by any other name- sounds the same🙃
If someone asks you to write a note which is an augmented unison away from C, which one do you choose without asking whether it is higher or lower?
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Did you see the word “upper”?
It is standard procedure to consider an interval as being calculated in an upward direction unless specified otherwise.
If someone asks you to write a note which is an augmented 4th away from C, which one do you choose without asking whether it is higher or lower?
I would choose the F# above the C, as that follows the normal procedure for calculating intervals.
You wrote " a flat in front of the second note".
Read it in the context of the whole post!