Trial download experience

hum…
Can you try to use the “Generic Low Latency ASIO Driver” for Dorico, under “Edit->Device Setup…”
and the ASIO focusrite for Studio One…do you still have noise in Studio One ?
Thanks for your feedback

Some more things,

we were looking at the user’s manual of your Saffire. The driver has settings for ASIO buffer size and Firewire Latency. Could you please try playing with these settings and see if you get different results (i.e. clear audio)?
Especially please try with a longer Firewire latency.

Further, what does the clock source and the locking status of your device say? To be found in the Saffire MixControl on the right bottom side, left to the volume knob.

And also, while googling on related issues, I found a page with a review of the Saffire Pro 24 saying:
“Initially I had problems with noise from the Saffire, which didn’t go even with all inputs disconnected, so I contacted Focusrite support. The support was very good, and helped me trace the source of the problem to my firewire card. Focusrite recommend firewire cards with Texas Instruments or VIA chipsets, and although my card had a VIA chipset, replacing it with a different brand (but still with a VIA chipset) cured the noise problem completely.”

How about the chip of your firewire card?

I already tried to use Generic Low Latency ASIO Driver shipped with Dorico and tried it again. It doesn’t work at all. No sound in Dorico playback, no sound via Halion Sonic SE2 plugin’s virtual keyboard. It also doesn’t solve the noise problem in Studio One with ASIO Focusrite audio setup. The same noise.

Just to mention this. I already reported that checking the entry “Suspend audio device in background” in Dorico didn’t remove the noise. That’s true, but I didn’t realize another problem at the time. Whenever this entry is checked on, Dorico’s playback is not working. The green playback line is moving normally, but no sound can be heard. Everything is muted. In addition, all keys of Halion Sonic SE2 virtual keyboard are frozen, i.e. cannot be played nor “pressed” with mouse.

Playing with ASIO buffer size (32 - 2048 samples), sample rate (44.1 - 96 kHz) and latency (Short, Medium, Long, Very long) combinations is not making any sense here. The same crunching noise persists in all reasonable combinations. My standard settings are: Sample Rate 44.1 or 48 kHz, Buffer Size 1024 or 512 samples and Firewire Latency Short, i.e. 24.26 ms or 12.65 ms. In Sibelius 8.4 and Notion 6 playback I have no problem with sample rate of 48 kHz and buffer size of 128 samples what makes latency of just 3.63 ms.

Sync Source of device is “Internal”, Sync Status is “Locked”.

My IEEE 1394 host controller is "Texas Instruments TSB43AB22 1394A-2000 OHCI Controller ", that is exactly what Focusrite recommends and always recommended for Saffire firewire devices. I have this audio device almost 4 years and never experienced any problem, especially not such a crunching noise problem. With this device and Yamaha MSP 7 Studio Speakers the sound was always, and still is, perfectly clear, unless the VSTAudioEngine process is running.

I would suggest thorough investigation of your VSTAudioEngine.exe. The facts are: Sibelus 8 has no problem with Saffire audio, Notion 6 has no problem, Studio One has no problem. No problems with standalone/plugin VST workstations like Kontakt 5, Sample Tank 3, Garritan GPO5 and Aria Player, Toontrack EZdrummer 2, XLN Audio Addictive Keys and Addictive Drums 2 etc etc. Only Dorico has the problem because its audio engine has the problem.

Just downloaded and installed Steinberg Sequel 3 Trial. It is working and sounding fine and its audio engine is not producing the noise. Is it the same audio engine as in Dorico? Obviously not.

This is all so wonderfulyl weird…

Well, yes, basically Sequel 3 has the same audio engine, but on a much much older status. I would like you to try out the new Cubase 9 (which will go public today), because Dorico’s audio engine is nearly identical to that of Cubase 9.
I will PM you a trial activation code and download link soon.

Thanks a lot for Cubase Elements 9 Trial.

Great product, excellent DAW. Download and installation were trivial, but activation took me an hour. In fact, activation part succeeded in first attempt, but “Starting of License Usage Period” failed four times, although eLicenser software was up-to-date and database refreshed. The fifth attempt was successful.

As I am not familiar with Cubase product line, I need some time to enter into the product. So, I will report within 48 hours. In the meantime, if you have enough time, you may watch and listen to these videos on Youtube (assembled and exported from Sibelius 7.5/8 using Saffire device and Saffire ASIO driver). Hope I will be doing the same with Dorico soon as Sibelius has no future. It is “Dead Man Walking”.

The Doors: Riders On The Storm

Deep Purple: Black Night (1971)

Sibelius 7.5 - Tuplets

Oskar Rieding: Concert Mignon I Op. 48

F. Chopin: Nocturne (Posthumus)

One hint, for setting the audio device in Cubase, choose the menu Device > Device Setup.

Unbelievable and so frustrating! So wonderfully weird, as you said. The crunching noise exists in Cubase 9 and I would say even more than in Dorico. I never experienced such an issue. Before purchasing Studio One 3, I was evaluating FL Studio, Cakewalk Sonar, Avid Pro Tools and Ableton Live more than six months and didn’t find any audio problem. Only Steinberg was omitted from evaluation because the top-three most irritating things when it comes to Steinberg are: dongle, the fact it must be purchased separately and the fact it must be purchased even for some demo versions of its products. I know many people who refused to buy anything from Steinberg just because of dongle policy.

Beside Saffire audio device and Yamaha monitors connected to it, there is also a cheap SB Audigy PCI sound card in the same computer with two small and cheap Logitech speakers connected to it, sounding poorly. The third audio device (on-board sound chip) is OFF in BIOS. I can easily switch between Saffire audio (“Speakers Saffire Audio”) and SB Audigy audio (“Speakers SB Audigy”) by setting a device as default device in the system Sound playback window and it has nothing to do with ASIO drivers that are specific for studio recording and notation apps only. Steinberg ASIO Generic Lower Latency Driver works with both audio devices, while ASIO Saffire driver can certainly work only with Saffire audio device. Here is what I found.

If ASIO Saffire driver is set as VST Audio System in Cubase 9 Device Setup, it works exclusively with Saffire audio device (see screenshots in ‘ASIO Saffire’ directory of attached zip file). In that case

  1. the crunching noise exists in Cubase 9 playback

  2. all the apps using ASIO Saffire driver and therefore Saffire audio as output for playback (Studio One, Sibelius, Notion etc) are affected producing the same noise

  3. all the apps using Saffire audio device for playback (Groove Music, Media Player etc) are affected producing the same noise

  4. only the apps using SB Audigy audio device for playback are not affected (no noise, clear, but poor sound)

If Steinberg ASIO Generic Lower Latency Driver is set as VST Audio System, it works with both Saffire and SB Audigy audio devices (see screenshots in ‘ASIO Steinberg Generic Low’ directory). In that case

  1. if Saffire audio device (“Speakers Saffire Audio”) is set as output, the crunching noise exists in Cubase 9 playback

  2. If SB Audigy audio device (“Speakers SB Audigy”) is set as output, no noise in Cubase 9 playback, no noise in apps using SB Audigy audio for playback

  3. regardless of which audio device is set for output, the noise still persists in all the apps using ASIO Saffire driver or just Saffire audio device for playback, just because Steinberg audio engine is running

As the noise issue exists even if No Driver is set as VST Audio System in Device Setup, I am coming to the conclusion that the issue is not a matter of ASIO drivers. The issue is a matter of interference between Saffire audio device and Steinberg audio engine. In other words, they don’t like each other.

My next step will be to contact Focusrite technical support and ask them why Saffire Pro 24 DSP doesn’t like Steinberg audio engine and why Steinberg audio engine is the only exception.
screenshots.zip (514 KB)

Thanks so much for all your test. This is all still a mystery to us.

Could have to do with the fact, that you have a dual socket machine. We know that our audio engine is not performing as good as one would expect on such architectures, but it should not matter.

In the Cubase Device Setup dialog, could you please try and play with other settings, for example switching off MultiProcessing and ASIO-Guard and see if that makes a difference?

Also, have you rebooted your machine and just started Cubase, nothing else; still crackling?

From remote it is so difficult to find out what is going on on your system…

I already experimented switching MultiProcessing and ASIO-Guard OFF, as well as MultiProcessing ON/ASIO-Guard OFF and MultiProcessing ON/ASIO-Guard ON. No difference and didn’t help. BTW, it is enough to start just Steinberg Hub without opening a project to reproduce the issue.

I always restart machine after installing new software, even if it is not explicitly required. The same was with Cubase 9. Yes, crackling still exists.

I’d like to correct my previous report about Sequel 3. Sorry, it was mistake. That afternoon I experimented and switched hundred times between the two audio devices and it happened that the program automatically picked up Steinberg ASIO Generic Driver and SB Audigy audio that was system default output at the time. That was the reason there was no noise in Sequel playback nor in Groove Music as potentially affected application. I apologize. The same noise issue (crackling/crunching) exists in Sequel 3 as well. No difference.

Now I am going to contact Focusrite tech support to discuss the issue and will be back when I get a reasonable answer.

Just one question. I am thinking about purchasing Steinberg Absolute 2 VST collection (Halion 5, Halion Sonic 2, Halion SO, Groove Agent 4 etc). Can you confirm that those products have nothing to do with Steinberg audio engine? Thanks in advance.

Yes, I can confirm that, but mind you though: You stated earlier that you don’t like dongles and that that is a reason for not buying software. Well, the Absolute collection will only run with a dongle…


But back to your Focusrite issue:
Could you please try one more thing? With the Cubase trial installation that you now have, go to Devices > Device Setup and instead of choosing the Saffire ASIO driver, choose the Generic Low Latency Driver. This is a general purpose ASIO driver (provided by Steinberg) with which you still can use your Saffire hardware as output, you can configure this in the driver’s Control Panel. First click in the left column on Generic Low Latency Driver, then on the button Control Panel on the right, a new little window will appear, see also attached screenshot. Well, I don’t have a Focusrite, so don’t look for it in the pic, but in your case the Saffire ports shall turn up in the list of outputs. If not, please tick/untick the option “Allow ASIO host application to take exclusive control…” on top of the window.
With that Generic driver and your Saffire, still some noise?

Thank you. Nobody likes dongles. Neither you, I suppose. But even a Steinberg The Dongle will not prevent pirates from cracking the software. On the black market (not via internet, only in private contacts) you can buy everything from Steinberg for just several bucks. I am pretty sure the dongle policy ruins Steinberg’s income and profit, contributing nothing, just irritating potential customers forcing them to stay away from Steinberg.

Hmm… That is already reported in my penultimate post. Allow me to quote:

**"If Steinberg ASIO Generic Lower Latency Driver is set as VST Audio System, it works with both Saffire and SB Audigy audio devices (see screenshots in ‘ASIO Steinberg Generic Low’ directory). In that case
\

  1. if Saffire audio device (“Speakers Saffire Audio”) is set as output, the crunching noise exists in Cubase 9 playback"**
    It was also “documented” by pictures in ‘screenshots.zip’ file. Go to ‘ASIO Steinberg Generic Low’ directory, look at the screenshot, then go to ‘With Saffire Audio’ subdirectory and look at three additional screenshots.

OK, just tried it again with the same result. Yes, with that Generic driver and my Saffire audio the same noise still exists. You can hear that crackling noise from Cubase 9 playback recorded by microphone connected to another computer. Listen to the MP3 audio enclosed in attached zip file. I deliberately turned up the volume to better hear the noise.
Gen_Driver_to_Saffire_Audio.zip (1.71 MB)

Contacted Focusrite tech support and I am back here as I promised. Focusrite tech support didn’t help anything. The issue and the fact it is happening only with Steinberg audio engine remains complete mystery for them. In the meantime I tried the updated Dorico 1.0.20. The same issue.

Anyway I am sure the issue is only a matter of strange interference between Saffire audio device and Steinberg audio engine and most definitely has nothing to do with ASIO drivers and ASIO setup options. Dorico’s audio engine is nearly identical to that of Cubase 9, right? The only difference is that it is implemented as a separate standalone process in Dorico. So, the procedure to reproduce the issue is trivial.

  1. Launch Groove Music or any other player and start playing some music audio or video. The sound is perfectly clean, clear and rich.

  2. While the music is playing, start Steinberg audio engine process by double-clicking on VSTAudioEngine.exe. The crackling noise immediately appears.

  3. Kill the VSTAudioEngine process. The crackling noise immediately stops and the sound is clean as before.

Ulf is now on holiday for a couple of weeks, I’m afraid, but when he returns I’m sure he will want to look into this further. I will drop a line to the others who are working on the audio engine project for Dorico to see if they have any ideas in the meantime.

I am posting under this topic in the hope that Ulf is looking at it. I too have problems with sound distortion but not associated with any other equipment.
If I load completely from scratch this sound is fine for a period of time (usually 4-5mins) and then becomes distorted. Some semblance of pitch is recognisable under the distortion but the respose appears to be slower. It occurs for a project with a single instrument as well as ones with multiple instruments and it also occurs if I load Aria player with Garritan instruments rather than my normal setting of HALion Sonic.
I assume it is something to do with the VST Audio Engine because if I close a project and re-open, the distortion is still there. However, if I close a project and also close the hub (which presumably shuts down the VST Audio Engine) and then reload from scratch the distortion has gone for 4-5 mins before it starts again. This makes it very laborious to play through pieces when I am working on them.
I am running Dorico 1.0.20.4065 on an Asus laptop with a dual core i5 processor and 8gb of RAM

Another thing I notice is that, with ‘Task Manager’ showing the running processes, the VST Audio Engine is constantly taking more and more memory whether anything is happening in Dorico or not. The distortion seems to happen when the VST Audio Engine has used around 800 MB of memory and seems to gradually get worse as time (and Memory use) increases. It is obviously busy doing something in the background.

We still have no clue on your issue.

Could you please post the log file of the audio engine which can be found at C:\Users<yourname>\AppData\Roaming\Steinberg\VSTAudioEngine_64\logs\VSTAudioEngine.log ?
Maybe that gives us some hint.
We have tenthousands of Cubase installations out there with no problems. It must have something to do with your particular hardware/setup.

Hi Joe,
so you are using the Generic Low Latency ASIO driver then with the built-in soundchip, right?
For the increasing memory consumption, I have never seen something like that before. So you start Dorico and load a project and then leave it running, and still over time memory consumption is increasing? Could you please describe in a little more detail of what you are doing?
Depending on the project’ complexity, already immediately after loading the audio engine can easily take up 1GB of RAM, so the amount of memory that you are reporting is not so extraordinary.

Hello - I’m having issues getting a download link. I’ve asked for one through the website 4 times in the last 24 hours, and I receive no link in my inbox. I have a mac.com account, and I’ve done all the obvious things like checked my junk folder etc. Is the trial link working at the moment? I’m on half-term and trialling the software was on my to-do list prior to submitting school departmental budgets for next year!

Hi Richard, looks almost like. I’ve tried myself and didn’t get an e-mail either. I will talk to our IT…