Trill placement, advice needed

The trill in bar 21 looks to me closer to the C in the left hand than the e natural in the right hand to which it belongs. I’m using Dorico defaults.
I’m looking for engraving advice from the pros: How should this be fixed? Should I push the tr up and to the right? Or…?

Pete, perhaps you can change the option for the vertical distance of trills and horizontally center it more to the stem…

1 Like

It’s a possibility. I could also create a local override here. I’m wondering if just tweaking the position of the trill is the best engraving solution there is. For instance, could the trill be placed above the e natural?

Hi Pete. I think you are right. It is confusing as it stands, and I would move the trill closer to the note to which it belongs and maybe increase the distance between the staves a little for clarity.

I personally don’t care for ornaments, articulations (or fingering) centered over stems. I center them all over the note heads. But some do center articulations and fingering over stems. Not so sure I’ve ever seen ornaments centered over stems, however. No examples of that in Gould, for example.

2 Likes

That’s why I said “more”

But in Engraving Options you can see many examples of what I mean for “more”:

I guess I would even consider moving the trill symbol above the staff to avoid confusion.

Sorry I misunderstood you @Alberto_Maria Yes moving it slightly left as well as upward might help it nest more in the space to the right of the stem. But too much left would be counterproductive in bringing the top of the trill symbol too close to the stem.

@Estigy I think it is standard practice to place it below the staff in cases like this and I don’t that the situation warrants an exception. And it might create confusion about the note the trill pertains to.

Yes John, not too much! :wink:

Is shortening the stem of the e an option?

I would try that, yes.

trill

1 Like

I just noticed that the tie in the upper part between the two G’s seems to start late and is too far from the first G note head. Is there a setting that can correct that?

I know that that would be standard practice. I still think that the trill above the note would create less confustion than it does currently :wink:

I hadn’t noticed the issue with the tie.
These are default Dorico settings. Is that tie in fact incorrect and needing adjustment? Now that you mention it it definitely would seem so.

I didn’t see it at first either, but one could even mistake it for a slur from the F. This is the kind of thing that Dorico often takes care of with an option, but I couldn’t find one. Perhaps it is just one of those things that one must adjust by hand. Coming from Finale, I just accept that some things have to be done by hand, but with Dorico, you never know, the software may very well be able to handle it!

1 Like

I would be with you if there were no tie in the top voice. Here is an example from the NMA (Mozart’s manuscript is the same):

Mozart K 332.1

The saving grace with placing it over the note even with the tie is that the trill symbol is always placed over a note head, but I’d still be concerned about confusion. Maybe I worry too much.

1 Like

Nice example, almost identical! Except for the tie of the g. But it shows the tr can be on the staff itself, I don’t consciously remember ever seeing that (though I’m sure I’ve seen it hundreds of times).
So then the question is whether to go for @Derrek 's solution, or to try and follow your example and either place the tr under the tie (and adjust the tie to make it arch more) or perhaps over the tie…
I’ll play around and see what looks most natural…

Or also
image
Slightly moved the trill. Optional: flip the C.

2 Likes

That looks good to me. Would keep upstems in the L.H.

1 Like

For me, the tie rules out the trill on the staff. But putting the trill (or practically anything else) on the staff can be appropriate in special circumstances.