Yes, getting rid of the VST2 plugins is certainly an excellent idea, especially if they’re already quite old! This eliminates certain issues and allows you to focus your attention on the VST3 side.
In this context, the following files in the Cubase xx_64 folder, which I didn’t mention before, may also be of interest:
VstPlugInfoV4.xml
Plug-in database. Stores details about installed VST plugins, especially those loaded via shells or wrappers (e.g. Waves plugins). Cubase reads information such as version, manufacturer, and path from this database so it doesn’t have to completely rescan all plugins every time it starts.
VstPresetCompatibilityPlugInfo.xml
Manages preset compatibility. Ensures that presets created for a specific version of a plugin can also be recognized and loaded correctly by newer or similar plugin versions. It links internal plug-in IDs to enable seamless exchange of settings between different instances.
VstPresetVersionPlugInfo.xml
Manages the versioning of VST presets. Stores information about which plug-in version is required for each preset. This helps Cubase to determine whether a saved preset is compatible with the currently installed plug-in version or if conversions are necessary.
All three files are automatically created or updated by Cubase.
While the information they contain is rather irrelevant if everything is functioning properly, comparing the contents of these files with backed-up copies or files from other versions can be helpful in case of errors.
I usually go for the jugular and trash, however in this case it seems going that deep wasn’t necessary and you are right.
I will miss a very few VST2’s that haven’t been replaced with the equivalent. And there can be 3rd party software to address VST2 if it’s that important.
I’m not sure if this apology - honorable as it is - wasn’t premature. Shouldn’t even outdated VST2 plugins be tamed enough by the flagship DAW of the VST inventor to prevent them from crashing the entire application? Doesn’t this inherently involve an insecure approach to handling “unruly” plugins?
And even leaving aside VST2 plugins, which will soon be history anyway: What about the (alleged) misinterpretation of the presence of VST3 plugins, which is still pending? Will an apology be issued for that as well, or is there a change in functionality in C15 compared to C14 that suddenly makes detected plugins unavailable?
This is the age-old “stability” vs “flexibility” question. It “can be” at a cost, depending on how the DAW devs go about sandboxing. Bitwig’s approach is to offer multiple isolation/hosting modes with different trade-offs in shared memory access and resource allocation. It’s actually a decent model, but of course you have to write that into the DAW. “Should” Cubase have isolation modes? Sure, in theory. But VST devs “should” write decent code. Even if Cubase isolated the plugins, they would just not crash the host - they would STILL be unusable. So just uninstall it and be done with it.
Isolation and sandboxing still won’t fix bad code in a vendor’s plug-in, so with limited dev resources it seems like a reasonable position. If you’re writing something from scratch, I guess it’s a different story, and no one knows exactly what kind of legacy effort would be required for SB to build in sandboxing, and at the end of the day, what real value-add it has.
What I meant was that Cubase should be able to protect itself better from outdated, faulty, poorly programmed, etc. VST(2&3) plugins to prevent itself from crashing. I did NOT claim that Cubase MUST be able to flawlessly run every single crappy plugin. THAT must be the responsibility of the plugin developers, and it will be anyway. Any serious developer who repeatedly releases plugins that cause problems will not be able to sustain that economically in the long run.
In my opinion, Steinberg should finally close the door on VST2 in Cubase; that would be the best. If they don’t, more and more outdated VST2 plugins will compromise the stability of the DAW because it is apparently unable to maintain sufficient control over plugins with problematic behavior.
That’s how I understood your statement. To separate the plug-in from the core audio features Cubase would have to sandbox it. That’s what I meant by “the plugin still wouldn’t function,” but that Cubase [potentially] wouldn’t crash. But that all comes at a feature cost, and a retrofit to sandbox properly probably isn’t realistic.
In my option, Steinberg’s approach to decommissioning VST2 has been proper. They’ve been warning us for years to stop using it. If people do it anyway, that’s their problem. It’s already unsupported. This gives people time to either change plugins or change DAWs.
I don’t really see the purpose of some final act of “closing the VST2 door programmatically” other than as a step towards future development without backward compatibility. If people can run their VST2s and it works, great. If it makes Cubase crash, then delete the VST2 and move on. From what I’ve seen, they’re extremely conservative when it comes to these kinds of technical decisions.
Then that’s the user’s problem, right? They’ve already said “don’t do that.” If people do it anyway, then the problem kind of takes care of itself - they can’t use Cubase. Today, people who purchase C15 get the newer features, and can still run VST2 at their own risk. That seems like a decent compromise, up until the point they MUST disable it completely when the architectural changes they are planning require it.
I guess I just don’t see the issue the same way. If VST2’s crash Cubase, then don’t use them.
Look, for example, at the fuss, frustration and negative attitude (at least initially) in this topic:
It’s the attitude that if a seller offers something, if they make something possible, they also have to guarantee its functionality. Disclaimers and warnings don’t help with that. If the car CAN go 200 km/h, then it’s EXPECTED that you can also drive safely at 200 km/h, even if the manufacturer repeatedly warns against driving faster than 150 km/h because something will go wrong then for which they take no responsibility. If the car falls apart at 200 km/h, the reputation is ruined because nobody cares then what the owner’s manual says.
I see it the same way with Cubase. “At your own risk” is bullshit; nobody accepts that when something is made possible. If VST2 is offered, it must work. Otherwise, it should be discontinued. Just my opinion.
Clarify your wording again please. You mean the little button that allows vst2 plugs to be scanned should be eliminated? Is that what you mean by “offered”?
I’m sure it will be zapped at some point.
Personally, I’ll still use vst/vst2 plugins after that too although likely through the bluecat host stuff etc.
On the other hand….notwithstanding experiences of others, I have yet to this day had a vst (jbridged) or vst2 (scanned by any version of Cubendo I own) behave any other way than flawless and as-expected. Which of course, I’m happy about.
Yes, exactly. The software developer enables (though not activates) and even documents this feature. Therefore, the developer should also assume responsibility for the functionality of this “offer”. If the developer is unwilling to do so, knowing the likelihood of failure, they should remove the offer in the interest of their reputation.
I am aware that the expectation of continuity conflicts with this. However, if accommodating this expectation leads to a negative review of the product, it is better to end this accommodation from this point forward.
Oh, I was far beyond mere negative attitude – I was properly pis*ed off, mate!
I stated the reason for that anger in the title of this thread: my latest problems with project migration are unprecedented. I’ve been with Cubase since I was almost a kid, since about the middle of the 1990s, and during all that time, no migration to a new machine and/or the next version of Cubase has caused me so much grief and frustration as this last one. Throughout that time, I’d always work on some very long-term projects, so for me, some stability in that regard has been essential and something I’ve always depended on. I understand that I’m getting older and that things are accelerating (towards certain doom, but let’s leave the pending apocalypse aside for a moment). It’s also not Steinberg’s fault that my patience with technical bullsh*it has been wearing dangerously thin lately, as I’ve come to regard computers in general not as a fascinating, fun, and endlessly useful conduit for creativity anymore, but merely as a potentially extremely hostile and even dangerous obstacle that needs to be closely monitored and fought, and which stands in the way of my work each and every day. I’m simply beyond disappointed with how my love for Cubase as a tool that used to allow me to express myself musically has turned into a dreaded, endless technical chore that far too often involves chasing down solutions and leaves very little room for actually enjoying myself while working on music. This is not the first time that I’ve been seriously frustrated with Cubase, but it’s definitely the worst (the first long-term frustration was YEARS of delay implementing multitrack free audio warp, which almost all other DAWs including Studio One already had, but Steinberg took so many years to finally introduce it that I was just about to move to Studio One altogether, had it not been for the fact that I knew Cubase so well that I instead waited). But this latest trouble is certainly the WORST of such frustrations and one that I’ll never forgive and forget.
One of the main reasons for my latest computer upgrade was to finally finish some long-term collaborations with friends who depend on me as a producer aside from a fellow musician. I grew tired of my previous CPU whining and coughing in some of the more complex projects, and I expected the migration to accelerate my work process and provide some much-needed relief in terms of technical chores, so that I could focus on the music, sound, and effortless mixing – “effortless” in the sense of a lack of endless obstacles standing in the way of what I want to achieve. Instead, every project I attempt to open now is a total minefield of bad surprises and low blows. My projects have come grinding to a halt instead of progressing more smoothly, and instead of something I used to look forward to – as music is my beloved hobby and a way of blowing off some steam rather than a profitable activity – I’ve now quite literally started experiencing PHYSICAL discomfort each and every time I even see the Cubase icon on my desktop and try to FORCE myself to deal with it instead of being pleasantly drawn to it.
ASM is completely and insightfully correct in his assessment: such things DO matter. A LOT! Even a very simple thing would spare me most of all this anger, even rage: if only Cubase bothered to inform us WHICH plugin crashes before crashing itself. If that were the case, I don’t think I’d write even a single word on these forums.
Not all of us take pleasure in endless technical problems – I know some people do, and I thank the mysterious powers of the universe for them each time they help me out on various forums just like you guys so clearly have… But most musicians I know don’t. This is precisely the reason why I ended up a “producer” in the first place: because I was one of the few among my musician friends that’s been able to deal with technical aspects of production and all the endless bullsh*t that comes with it. But lately, I’ve REALLY been feeling the urge to turn everything off and just keep playing my instruments for myself without worrying about ways of recording them and making them heard.
In my previous post, I apologised because I incorrectly assumed that no VST2 plugin could have been the culprit (due to complex and bizarre reasons described in that post), and I know that, strictly speaking, these plugins are no longer supported… But I doubt that determining the exact reason for this one crash of one particular project will be the end of it. I’m sure that many more problems are lurking just around the corner – if not, I’ll be extremely surprised. As I’m supposed to bring these longwinded projects to a conclusion this year, I doubt I’ll be able to avoid them… And I’ll report back if “interesting” strange things keep happening.
But is this the way it’s supposed to be? Staring at that Cubase icon every day, feeling sick to my stomach while trying to conjure up enough motivation out of thin air to keep dealing with it in the way of a zen master, which I clearly and evidently am not? Is this TRULY the way in which music is supposed to be made?
Let’s not forget please, that this feature works for the vast majority of customers.
I see Ray’s issue as an isolated case, not the general behavior of the program. The case has the specialty that the computer got changed and the hard drives got taken along.
I would add that the feature of allowing VST2 works as intended. Whether or not a specific VST2 functions is a different story. Baby with the bathwater, and all that.
We also don’t know anything about the nature of the VST3s that were previously installed. They could all 32-bit for all we know. I get the user is frustrated, but I absolutely agree that both context and method are critical here.
Excuse me, kind sir, if I don’t think that buying a new computer and taking terabytes of data with me on a hard drive is much of a “specialty”. And I’m also sorry that my pals and I have taken many years to work on some of these projects. So, in this unheard-of situation, what should I have done, in your opinion? Sent everything to my new phone via WhatsApp?
And, Mr. Thor.HOG, 32-bit VST3 plugins? You’re kidding, right?
Come on, guys, please – if you don’t have anything constructive to contribute, how about not posting anything? I usually stay away from internet forums for precisely this reson, but this one has made a FANTASTIC first impression on me for a change. Please don’t ruin it now!
No sir, I’m not. It’s hard for me to actually dissect your posts to find out exactly what you did. You mentioned the “Soft Tube” VST3 being “in the exact same place as the original” but I didn’t see where you actually reinstalled, or if you expected C15 to find a VST3 in some other, non-default location; which it can’t.
Other folks posts may not be constructive to you, but they very well may be to someone else who finds themselves in a similar situation. That said, if you can’t ignore my posts that upset you, then I will happily oblige and stop posting in this thread.
I am not sure why you feel that I attacked you but I apologize. That was not my intention.
I am looking at your case from the angle “why does it happened on your machine but not on others?”. For example, I can load all my old Cubase projects in C15 without any issues, even if they use VST2 plugins. So where’s the difference? For sure you have different plugins than I have (at least I don’t have any of the plugins you mentioned). And you switched the computer, while I didn’t. If we assume that the plugins should function properly then the switch of computers is the one remaining point. Maybe all plugins need to be uninstalled and reinstalled? I can only guess.
