Update - not what was 'promised'

Dorico
#1

What a considerable disappointment (to some of us) the latest update to 1.0.30 is. We have been repeatedly told to have ‘faith’ (yes, that’s a paraphrase) to the team yet after hearing countless times that chord symbols were going to be added in the .30 update, they’re not. I suppose we must wait now for v.40 or will it be .50 before some of us can use the program from what we actually need it to do? Patience can be fragile and I feel that I have been given false information. I am delighted that the program was rushed out to ensure that grace notes perform correctly. That helps me (and many more I’m sure) so much.

Can Daniel guarantee that chord cymbals and the fiasco that is meant to be ‘gold standard’ in drum layout will be corrected in version .40? We’re told the next update will be in the spring. As Spring ends (in the UK) on 20th June, the team can release their next update on 20th June 2017 and still be honouring their goals. Potentially having to wait potentially 6 months or over for a ‘gold standard’ product is poor in my opinion.

I respectfully request, all the ‘defend Dorico at all costs’ brigade that frequent the forum, take a moment; pause and think about us, the other guys here who simply want to earn their living from something they have paid good money for (I paid the full price) are expected to be quiet and not complain when things we were assured just didn’t happen’. I wonder what my mortgage lender would say if I came up with continual excuses and delays? So please, if you are a “Dorico Defender” please say nothing, because this post is aimed directly at the Steinberg Team and Daniel in particular who should have the intestinal fortitude to apologise unreservedly.

#2

I appreciate the professionalism with which you expressed your frustration. Most don’t do that, from what I have seen.

However, I’m confused as to where you heard or read that v1.0.30 would have chords. Everything I have read stated, “The update after the forthcoming update.” Poorly worded? Maybe. Confusing? Maybe. But nothing that I have seen stated that v1.0.30 would have chords of drum notation.

I do agree that waiting is not ideal for the users who need Chord symbols. And I am sorry that you, and others like you have to wait.

Robby

#3

We have never said that chord symbols would be included in the 1.0.30 update; in fact, I’ve been at pains to make clear to everybody that chord symbols would not be included in the 1.0.30 update, which I have said over and over again, both here on the forum, and in my various blog posts.

We are painfully aware that many of our current users, as well as lots of people who are interested in Dorico but have not yet purchased, need chord symbols to do their work. We have been working on chord symbols since we returned to work in January after pushing out two updates in quick succession before Christmas. However, our vision for how chord symbols should work – which includes fast and efficient means of inputting them both via computer keyboard and MIDI keyboard, options for playback, and comprehensive options for changing their visual appearance, not to mention smarter options for when and where they should appear – cannot be implemented in a matter of a few weeks. There would be no point in us rushing out a chord symbols feature that doesn’t meet the needs of professional musicians.

I know the wait is painful. It is painful for us too. We have tried throughout to be as transparent as possible about what would and would not be included in the software at launch, and our web site clearly states that chord symbols and percussion notation (among other things) are not yet included. But we are committed to building something really good that will save you time and produce a better result, and this can’t be done overnight.

For the avoidance of doubt: I fully expect the update including chord symbols to be available a lot earlier than June. However, it will not include unpitched percussion features: those (along with cues and fingerings) will be our next highest priorities after the update containing chord symbols is available.

I am not short of the necessary intestinal fortitude required to apologise if there is something for which I need to apologise, but in this instance I’m not sure what you want me to apologise for.

#4

Thank you for your clarification. I would suggest many people have taken your acceptance of the importance of this feature as a tacit indication that its implementation would be a very high priority for an update to Dorico and was imminent. Now we have clarification that you actually have absolutely no idea when chord symbols will be implemented but you do know that when they eventually are available, we will (probably – and I’m intentionally being generous here) have to wait for yet a further update before we have a full implementation on the drum feature. Personally, I am delighted to now understand valuable programing resources were put into Piano pedalling, tremolo playback and grace note implementation above these other ‘lesser’ features on your ‘bell curve’ model so that any person who wished to make a jazz quartet piece will still be unable to create them. Accordingly by your admission you will not even guarantee these features (chords and drums) will ever be implemented anytime in 2017. Is it a case of ‘This year, Next year, Sometime, Never’? I’m delighted that all is now clarified. Thank you.

#5

You are very generous with the Original Poster. I am not sure there is a way to accuse someone of deception in a professional manner. I am sorry if the OP has no prior software program to use until Dorico fulfills the OP’s expectations and hope the features the OP needs (some of which I also need for Dorico to be useful in a production capacity) will soon appear.

Daniel and Team, thank you for the update.

#6

I understand that, for you, chord symbols and drum notation are the absolute top priority features without which you cannot do your work in Dorico. I’m sure there are other users and prospective users for whom that is true, too. But there are thousands of other users with different needs.

Dorico 1.0.30 has largely been developed by around half of our small team of developers here in London, plus the audio engine team in Hamburg. The remainder of the team have been working on improvements to MIDI input, chord symbols, piano pedalling, and editable note spacing. Half of the team have already contributed tangibly to the chord symbols feature, and three of our seven developers are, at the time of writing, working on it full-time. However, different members of the team have different strengths and areas of expertise, and it isn’t practical for the entire team to be working on a single feature at the same time.

It’s quite evident that you’re angry and disappointed, and I am sorry about that – the last thing we want to do is make people who use Dorico disappointed and angry! But it’s not true to say that I “actually have absolutely no idea when chord symbols will be implemented”, because I have said that they will be implemented in the next update, which will come in the spring, and I have also said in my previous reply in this thread that I fully expect it to be a lot earlier than June. Hopefully you understand that it’s not possible to give a concrete release date for a specific feature when that feature is still deep in development. Giving you a date now would only set an expectation that we might not be able to meet. We intend to release the chord symbols feature just as soon as it’s done, but we won’t release it any sooner than that.

You are also putting words into my mouth when you say that I “will not even guarantee these features… will ever be implemented any time in 2017”. That’s absolutely not what I said, and perhaps when the red mist has cleared a bit, you’ll realise that. In fact I would go so far as to say that I absolutely do guarantee that chord symbols and drum notation will be implemented in 2017.

Feel free to ring me up and shout at me about it if it’ll make you feel better. Send me a PM and I will gladly send you my office line.

#7

I felt the first post came across rather professional. Especially with a lot of the stuff I have read when it comes to this type of complaint in the past. I did not read it as insulting or belittling. However, this is clearly not the case by the OP’s second post.

Maybe part of my problem is that I was unable to pick up on the sarcasm in the first post. I read it at face value. Lesson learned…

Robby

#8

You are a generous soul.

#9

Seven developers seems to me to be a good size for a team that needs to work on several aspects of Dorico simultaneously, while communicating in such a way that the right hand truly knows what the left hand is doing. A larger group would involve a lot of extra work in coordination, with greater danger of programming decisions that cause problems down the road. I am also sure that the team is not wasting its time.

That said, it is understandable that the design and implementation of major features like chord symbols and drum notation (for which I personally have absolutely no need) has to be weighed against other features (e.g. repeats). There is probably a sensible order in tackling these features, defined by the actual programming process and I personally trust those who are responsible for deciding the overall order of progression that will yield the best results inthe long term.

Someone above mentioned Spring as a target for major improvements. I am hoping that, after what seems to have been a long Winter this year in central Europe, Spring is just around the corner. When it arrives, it lasts only three and not six months and always seems to go by quicker than Winter!

David

#10

Dude, if you decided to get your first notation package to make a living, why did you get Dorico in the first place? You knew it wouldn’t have chord symbols and wouldn’t for quite a while.
Why on earth didn’t you buy Sibelius or Finale and later crossgrade? I’ve been a Sibelius user for a number of years and simply got Dorico because of the cross grade deal. I haven’t been able to produce a single usable lead sheet with it yet, but I knew that going in. I’ll start using it for real when it can do what I need it to do. Period.

A professional (=making a living) is well advised to apply better judgement than what you were able to muster, apparently…

Cheers,
Benji

#11

Completely agree.

I have a concern over the accusation of deception over “promised” chords input that was never promised in the first place and, indeed, for which we were positively told wouldn’t happen for this update. This was promtly followed by attributing words to Daniel when, in fact, he had written the exact opposite!

Then, there’s the arrogance of telling members here “to say nothing” in response to the post in an open, public forum!

There is definitely a need for someone in this thread “who should have the intestinal fortitude to apologise unreservedly” and it’s certainly not Daniel or any member of the team.

I do hope that in the calm light of day, that OP will reflect on the post and do the right thing.

Michael

#12

Let’s not all pile in on the OP, folks. He’s entitled to his opinion and he’s entitled to express it.

#13

An OPINION is not the same as a false statement based on the sayer’s own imagination and wishful thinking.

Hats off in front of Daniel with such a patience. :slight_smile:

#14

I concur that I am deeply frustrated by the lack (as I see it) progress with aspects of Dorico’s progress and that is evident in the confusion; however I apologise to Daniel for assuming his acceptance of the importance of some key features was not a guarantee of an implementation of those features in this (.30) update.

BTW. Dorico is not my only score writing packing and I have been using Sibelius 6 for many years now. I paid £452 for the full retail price for Dorico because I wanted to support this new venture with my hard earned money and not rely on a cross-grade. Maybe if everybody had paid the full amount there may have been more users willing to voice their disappointment over certain aspects - just maybe…

#15

I’d much rather have Dorico take i’ts time in development and get things as right as possible the first time. Spending valuble time fixing bugs caused by haste takes away from progress. Daniel has always been out front and honest about the status of Dorico. And I for one really appreciate his honesty.

#16

I don’t think paying top whack gives you any more leverage as a disgruntled punter. I don’t think you get to dictate who can respond to your posts on this forum either, however much you’ve paid to Steinberg. Why are you so grumpy? You chose to pay £452 when you could have got an upgrade? That makes you a loser, big time.

#17

What?! No, it doesn’t.

While I agree that needlessly paying full price for something shouldn’t grant you any special treatment or grounds to complain or make accusations, I think it would make you an especially generous and interested party (with enough money to spare) rather than a ‘loser’, as you put it.

#18

Please, let’s not resort to calling names here.

I have often said that I am grateful and indeed humbled by those who choose to buy Dorico at full price as a signal of their strong support for our vision, although I am also grateful to everybody who chooses to buy Dorico, at whatever price they are able to buy in. I also try to be respectful of everybody’s views and opinions about what they want to get out of Dorico, and in the long run I hope that we will be able to satisfy everybody.

The work we are doing on chord symbols right now is really promising and I genuinely think it will prove to have been worth the wait, but we do still have quite a bit more to do in order to bring our vision for how this feature should work to life.

#19

Yay team! :wink: Let’s rock… :sunglasses: !!

Cheers,
Benji

#20

BOOM! I couldn’t have said it better! :laughing:

I, similarly to you, bought Dorico with the understanding, that I will not (be able to) use it immediately. I bought it early to get the crossgrade price from Sibelius. I bought “into” it because of Daniel’s involvement in Sibelius. At the time I bought Sibelius, it made Finale look like a “school boy” in the area of part extraction. It was a huge time-saver! People have been singing Finale’s praises since then, but I’m not interested.

Soooo, I will continue to use Sibelius until the first paid Dorico upgrade, by which time (many more) things will have been sorted out, and, I will have the time to really get into the application and begin to make the switch. Most of us will agree, the middle of a project, or several projects, is not the time to experiment with a new application.

Well said, Benji! :mrgreen: