Hi everyone,
I’m having a strange issue with VSL Synchron Solo Cello. When I input a natural harmonic (e.g., A3 with a circle symbol) and click on it in Write Mode, it sounds exactly at the correct pitch (A3). However, during playback, the same note is triggered one octave higher than written.
I’ve already contacted VSL support and they mentioned that the library only contains recorded artificial harmonics. Since the library covers the full range of artificial harmonics, the sounding pitch for A3 is definitely available and works perfectly when I click the notehead.
It seems like Dorico is applying some internal octave displacement during playback that doesn’t happen during note inspection. I’ve tried setting the Transposition to 0 in the Expression Map, but it doesn’t fix the discrepancy between the “click” and the “playback” sound.
Has anyone else experienced this or knows how to make the playback match what I hear when clicking the note? I’ve temporarily rerouted the technique to Sul Ponticello to keep it in the right octave, but I’d prefer a proper solution.
Best regards,
Wojtek
Isn’t A3 the open A string? The A4 natural octave harmonic would be notated an octave higher.
the lowest harmonic the Synchron cello can play is C4. As the keyboard mapping for this in the library is C2, the Expression Map has to transpose down 2 octaves (which the VSL maps actually do). The notated C4 thus sound like C4 as you’d expect, both in playback and clicking the note. In other words, I can’t replicate your findings. Perhaps a small test project demonstrating what you are finding might help solve the problem.
It might be this issue described here: Sending an add-on message cancels transposition of the main articulation - #5 by Richard_Lanyon
In which case the devs are aware of it.
the Synchron solo cello EM has no add-ons though – at any rate the version I used as a basis for my own modified map. I know there has been a discussion elsewhere about VSL incorrectly using add-ons instead of base entries (and agree entirely with the complaints there) but that isn’t the issue here afaik.
The initial version of the Synchron solo instruments maps did have addons for vibrato, but those were probably removed because I pointed out how the vibrato options ended up inadvertently triggering saltando bouncing bow when the short notes menu was active.
I wonder if there might also be a difference between adding a harmonic circle as a playing technique vs adding it via the harmonics section of the properties panel at the bottom, in terms of playback effect.
@wojtek_h did you verify your expression map?. Does it have the -24 transposition for the natural harmonics articulations? I just tested SY Solo Strings with the VSL latest expression map (downloaded last week) and there the harmonics sound OK (if I press the note I get the same pitch as with playback).
Best, thank you all for your replies. I’m currently in the middle of a project that doesn’t leave me much time for experimenting, but I’ll definitely look into all your suggestions.
@PjotrB: You are absolutely right about the notation. To clarify, I am notating the touch point (node) at A4 on the A string, expecting the sounding pitch to be A4. My issue is that playback gives me A5.
@mducharme: I was indeed using the Properties panel to set the harmonic type. I just tested the other method using a Playing Technique (Shift+P), and it didn’t solve the issue.
@dko22: Thank you for the insight into the C4 range and the internal -2 octave mapping. I am using the standard VSL Expression Map. As requested, I am attaching a small test project here so you can see exactly how it’s behaving on my system.
Thanks again for your patience and for helping me troubleshoot this!
Cello_Harmonic_Test.dorico (1.3 MB)
when I try this, I find that playback is always at notated pitch - ie correct. Sometimes when clicking on the note it is an octave too high and sometimes not – but then I can find a lot of issues when auditioning notes with some libraries. This actually sounds like the opposite of what you’re saying so I’m rather at a loss.
One thing perhaps worth bearing in mind is that the map does not contain a specific combination for arco+harmonic so it’s possible Dorico could get confused but in this case it seems to be resolving OK (likely as not, the auto mutual exclusions help here). What happens if you replace “arco” with “ord”? Does it work then? or even better, just “suppress playback” in Properties for the “arco”. To me it seems clear that the harmonic will play without cancelling the pizz specifically. Sometimes you need to get a bit creative to get the sound/notation combination you want but again, I can’t reproduce the actual problem here.
I haven’t managed to sort out the problem. Many thanks to everyone who took the time to try and help. The VSL support guy is happy because it works for him and he doesn’t intend to look into it further. For now, I won’t be using the harmonics samples until I find a library that works without having to wade through a cascade of settings. I’m closing this thread.
I’m not experiencing the problem from your file. I get it at the correct pitch.
However, your original post said you were having issues with the VSL Synchron Solo Cello but the sample file you sent is with the VSL Studio Solo Cello. Are you having the issue with both?
correct – I also noticed this but let it pass. After all, the map used does seem to correspond to the instrument. VSL library names can be confusing as the older set was renamed to Studio from Synchronized.
I find these names very confusing. I’ve been buying libraries for years with specific projects in mind, but I usually ended up using Steinberg’s default instruments. In the meantime, the VSL series has evolved, and I hadn’t been keeping up with it. When I suddenly needed a good-sounding solo cello for a project where I was pressed for time, I simply picked samples from what I had. I keep updating the software and now I have duplicate libraries in Vienna Assistant that use different players, but I’m selecting the ones that use the Synchron Player.
The licences I hold include Studio Solo Strings and SOLO STRINGS I Full Library. It seems that to understand the problem, I need to know the history of VSL’s product evolution over many years. Once again, I apologise for not specifying these names precisely, but I’m a bit lost in them.
don’t worry – you’re far from being alone in that. I’m sometimes confused myself.
It is understandable to be a bit confused because of the naming and the huge number of products. They have “Synchron” libraries and “Studio” Libraries.
All of their libraries use the Synchron Player now, they ported everything over from the old Vienna Insttruments player. This is the case regardless of whether they are Synchron libraries or Studio libraries.
Your old “SOLO STRINGS I Full Library” for Vienna Instruments has been discontinued and is no longer sold or supported. It is replaced by the “Studio Solo Strings” for Synchron player which uses the same recordings done for the old “SOLO STRINGS I Full Library”, just ported over to the Synchron player. So they are the same library, but a new player. Since you’ve upgraded, you can simply ignore the “SOLO STRINGS I Full Library” as though it didn’t exist.
The Synchron libraries are all newly recorded libraries, recorded in the past decade since VSL bought the Synchron Stage Vienna. They are all multi-mic recordings in this beautiful hall, picking up the ambience of the hall.
The Studio libraries are dry, single-mic recordings done in smaller rooms, where a larger space gets artificially simulated with reverb on the end-user’s computer. Other vendors also call these types of libraries “studio” libraries so this naming is more understandable generally. The majority of VSL’s Studio libraries were recorded 20 years ago as part of VSL’s old sampling run and were originally for the Vienna Instruments plugin or even Gigasampler libraries that predated the Vienna Instruments plugin. These old libraries have been ported to Synchron player over the past several years since it was becoming VSL’s new standard player for everything. Since these ports are now complete (excepting some missing articulations that might come later), VSL is only expanding the Studio series through new piano libraries. The newer Studio piano libraries differ from the rest of the Studio series in that they are new multi-mic recordings from recent years (rather than old single-mic recordings from a few decades ago) but share the common trait that they are done in a smaller room, around the same size as the room that the old single-mic studio recordings were done in.
The Studio libraries also come with a built-in reverb that simulates a large concert hall even though they were recorded in small, dry spaces. So if it sounds like it was in a big concert hall, it is because of this reverb being on (it can be switched off if desired).
The reason for the move to the Synchron libraries recorded with ambience in the Synchron stage is that room simulation is never perfect. You can get a bit of a uncanny valley effect when you put a full Studio ensemble in these simulated rooms, where you can tell it isn’t real but can’t quite put your finger on why. So you can get more realistic-sounding results with the Synchron libraries. But at the same time, with the Synchron libraries, you get stuck with the room sound as recorded and the room placement as recorded, while with the dry Studio libraries, since you can simulate any room you want, you can change the environment and stage placement completely. Some people prefer the control that gives. The Studio libraries are also still sometimes (but not always) more comprehensive in terms of articulations provided due to it being cheaper to record in smaller spaces with fewer microphones.
In the last two years, VSL newly recorded and released a series of solo string libraries done in the Synchron Stage Vienna, branded as the Synchron Solo Strings, contrasting with the Studio Solo Strings that were recorded ~20 years ago.
So this is why I was a little confused. There is both a VSL Studio Solo Cello and a VSL Synchron Solo Cello that are completely different libraries recorded 20 years apart with different techniques in a different space. The distinction between the two is only important for this discussion becuase they are different libraries that use different expression maps. So if you are talking about issues with a specific expression map, it can be confusing if people are looking at the wrong map.
All right, then. Based on what you see, am I using the correct expression map or not?
Flow 1 - Violoncello.pdf (22.1 KB)
Two more ideas when I see your screenshots:
- Can you please expand the expression map data at the very top of the expression map settings and check if „VelXF Sus“ is the correct preset? In older libraries/expression maps they used the Velocity preset.
- This A-1 is a little bit strange as it is not available in your dimension tree. I remember that they merged this regular library with the sordino library in a „Full“ preset which is listed as 02… preset. Could you please check if you select „02c Full Velocity“ if that will trigger this A-1 for „regular“?
Hope that helps.
I tried using the Velocity preset, but the result is the same. A-1 refers to setting middle C as C3, but I have it set to C4, so the A0 keyswitch is used.
The problem remains that when I click on a note, it plays the harmonic at the correct pitch, but during playback it plays an octave higher, which can be heard and seen on the Synchron virtual keyboard. The strange thing is that apparently it plays normally for everyone else.
Okay, so to save myself (and you) the trouble, I enabled octave transposition in the tuning section for harmonics in Synchron, and now, while nothing sounds when I click, the playback does play the correct pitches. I also had to limit the range of the harmonics upward, because it was playing the notes from the upper keyswitches.
