VST2 Plugins discontinued - Will Steinberg reimburse all the cash lost from that move?

The subject is clearly in relation to VST2, hence why it’s in the lounge section. And it’s not respectful when you’re just blasting such bias in people’s faces. Whether you can appreciate that, I don’t know.

My sole aim was to discuss the best course of action that works for the userbase affected - If the above idea was really so outrageous then you had a chance to say so, but have decided to go down a different route entirely and ignore what I’ve posted.

Not much else I can do, really.

Most probably paid no attention at all to that move and are now shocked to find out that Steinberg has been trying to get developers to stop using VST2 for years.
I’m not exactly excited at the prospect of having to dig through all my commonly used plugs and see if any are going to be an issue. But I’ve also been doing this a while. There was a VST 1 standard as well… no one seems cranked off that that isn’t supported either. Or how about Direct X plug-ins. I had quite a few of those at significant cost… all obsolete.
Like it or not that’s just the way computer technology and software works. It’s why I still have some old ass computers around here to run special applications for specialized hardware, one that still runs Win XP and another with Win 7. Hell it wasn’t all that long ago I finally recycled the Win 98SE machine. Eventually you use those special apps less and less and then never and get rid of the old machine. Some probably just forgot about all the software they have had to dump over the years. Or haven’t been doing it that long yet. :slight_smile:

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Wasn’t the plan/path releasing VST3 in 2008, VST3.5 in 2011, and discontinuing VST2.x in 2013… and then not entirely dropping VST2.4 until 2022??? That’s 14 years since VST3 release, and 9 years since discontinuing VST2.x in 2013

In any normal situation, for a 3rd party developer, the writing was on the wall 14 years ago. How much of a plan/path is needed?

I’m sure it’s of no coincidence that NI was also pretty much run into the ground.

How much does Steinberg need to babysit? Their biggest mistake imo, was in that there was a path - perhaps too long of a path. They should have put their foot down way sooner.

Just my 2 cents

I Don’t know, wherever the balance between keeping customers and those paying for VST3 commercial licenses happy lays, I guess?

From an end user perspective VST3 is great and it’s hard to understand why devs wouldn’t jump across, for the sake of their own users - however, it’s been a decade and there’s still hesitancy - for reasons discussed on here and many other threads in the past few weeks.

Or perhaps moved the spec to accommodate the concerns developers have been raising throughout the years? That’s another approach, of course.

It seems in this thread though, that, there’s a lot of thoroughly articulated business and management critiques on Steinberg, but they’re all based on assumptions aren’t they?

For example, here you’re assuming Steinberg hasn’t found the balance, because of some online complainers.

I’ve been heavy into VST dev and discussion for some time now, I haven’t really seen reasons for the hesitancy, and, certainly not anything to really blame Steinberg for. There’s really actually not that much discussion in regards to developers being hesitant.

Really, the hesitancy that I can see %99 of the time is reasonless, laziness, or they’re simply going to wait until push comes to shove… Which is what we new see with most the developers clinging to VST2.4 debris now saying “okay, we’ll jump on board the VST3 boat, fine”.

Again, this is an assumption they haven’t. They have been doing this, the VST Dev forum has existed for a very long time… It existed as a separate website before it was merged when the new forum took over. The VST SDK devs are very prompt in replying there from what I’ve seen.

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Yeah mostly assumptions, there’s clearly many developers on here who have music as a hobby and have their input, but collectively it’s a perspective from end users formed from assumptions- If Steinberg are giving off these vibes, it very much matters from a userbase stance, does it not?

If they’re not filling in the gaps of knowledge by communicating to ourselves then it allows a pool of assumptions to fill that void.

Therefore my suggestion that a clearer plan presented to end users would’ve been a more ideal approach vs a user announcement which is more a blanket statement which also takes aim at third party developers.

However, I totally appreciate that it’s ultimately down to the third party vendors to make this roadmap clear or be open to discuss it.

If you’ve been heavy into VST discussions and not come across this, then I don’t know what to say really. Here’s one example of a discussions between SB and bluecataudio:-

Bare in mind that Cubase’s core MIDI INSERT system sits on MIDI CC as it’s foundation, yet developers are being told that musicians don’t understand MIDI, and it’s a “bad user experience” it’s really quite hypocritical (imo).

Regardless of all that talk though, the biggest concern for me, are the vast majority who don’t spend time reading/posting to places like this, who do own Komplete keyboards, who may have 5 years of projects with VST2 KK instances in their projects - may find themselves cut adrift when the time comes.

Dom Sigalas has a KK hooked up to Cubase, Junkie XL has a KK hooked up to Cubase, Guy Michelmore has one - They’re key supporters of the DAW and anyone following their lead will be feeling that buying one of the leading controllers on the market with Cubase is a ‘safe’ buy.

However, as it stands KK (As a plugin to support the key switching/light guides/preset browsing/VST controls/Scale modes/Arps) should be presumed dead in the future until we hear otherwise. That means current users should today be thinking about how they archive their projects and to be mindful of VST2 instances in their projects from this point on.

Even when/if KK went VST3, there’s no guarantee’s it will automatically load in place of the VST2 version for existing projects. Somewhere between NI & Steinberg this hopefully has been factored in, There’s no guarantees that SB will make this a requirement of VST3 licensing to support it’s end user experience either.

UAD users, I don’t know how that’s going to pan out as they have their own DAW to push, plus there’s CLAP hovering as an open source alternative that may just find itself right place, right time to make a dent. I really don’t know on that front though - unlikely you’d expect.

Me personally, I want VST3 to be ‘the’ standard, and I want the MIDI Inserts to be improved to support automation/parameter ID’s rather than internal MIDI CC mappings. Maybe I’m naïve in thinking these changes will allow for that, but we’ll see.

Phase it out, ditch it, whatever…

To me the only thing that makes this unsettling is that happens at the same time as a move to a new licensing system.

Make it so people can ‘roll back’ to 11 dongle free.

Make it so people can roll back dongle free to SX (or which ever was the last one that does ALL, and runs that generation of plugins).

The plug ins themselves, like HALion, Sonic, and Groove Agent really need at least one VST2 release that still works with the new licensing system, and without mess like Rosetta (Apple will not keep that forever).

Already I’m looking at two critical hosts that I sadly ‘must use’ on a regular basis that cannot do VST3 and probably won’t anytime soon. A considerable amount of projects in those hosts rely on HALion and Groove Agent.

I’d like to buy into HALion 7, even if it means I must ‘roll back’ somehow to use those hosts that are still struggling to get into 64bit world (let alone VST3…Sibelius and Finale). With two different licensing systems going on though, that becomes a major pain.

Then there’s the problem for archivists and people with a lot of old templates and stuff to figure out how to ‘migrate’ to VST3 only.

If there are solid releases that work with the new licensing scheme, most of us will be somewhat happy. Well into the future, there should be some way to get old projects open and running on newer hardware. If dongles break, it’s not a problem. If someone is just now getting on board with Steinberg, they still have a ‘back door’ to roll back and work with VST2 technology ‘dongle free’ if they ‘require it’.

Do something about the dongle-barrier to get ‘something’ working that can open old projects and play them, and that would be ‘responsible’ and ‘considerate’.

I don’t know which is less of a fuss. Making some of the old releases work without a dongle, or just keeping VST2 around just long enough have ONE SOLID RELEASE that can host VST2 (without stuff like Rosetta…or at least get a license to keep distributing portions of it indefinitely after Apple cans it…which they will…they always do) on the majority of 64bit systems out there with a Windows or Apple OS.

But these points seem to exclude an awareness that it’s been years and years since the VST2 discontinuation announcements were made, and that there’s never a guaranty that a given software will continue to be backwards compatible forever.

It seems to me, when you consider the cost of daw programs of SB and others, which goes down year after year (adjusted for inflation), the idea that one company should, at their own cost, provide what would be only a temporary fix for other for-profit companies who’ve had nearly a decade to decide whether to devote resources to this area is not unreasonable.

And quite a few major hosts are still spending 80% of their dev time just doing kludges to get their products to work with the stuff Apple BREAKS.

Look at the dev history of stuff like Sibelius and Finale…
Half a page of stuff to keep it working with Macs.
1 new feature.
Pony up $50 to $100 to get it (or subscribe).

It’s a MESS, and believe me, I would ditch those hosts if I could, but real world demands from a rather significant portion of playing clients mean I must keep using them. I really don’t want to lose all my plugin HALion and Groove Agent templates.

I might face a Delima when H7 hits the streets. If it can’t run as a VST2, and it’s more difficult than a few clicks to ‘roll back’, I might have to pass. I’d rather not though, as I ALSO intend to stay with the times where I can, and work with clean VST3 setups in modern/current hosts.

I know, I know…get a new PC for the new stuff. Leave the old alone, devote several months to nothing but converting old projects into formats that’ll carry over…but I’m still paying for THIS PC, and the old ones from Windows 7 days and before are long dead (or not worth the bother/expense to revive).

As far as end-users, these are factors people need to consider when choosing their platform and software.

Seriously…

90% of my clients are public school band and choir directors. They use what the lobbyists will allow them to put on a purchase order.

If Finale is what’s in the band hall, that’s what they get…if they are lucky. (One of Finale’s ‘last’ major selling points is that they’ll take written Purchase Orders, deliver product, and wait around howver long it takes for their money to get there).

Will Steinberg put people on planes and send them around the world to LOBBY and get their stuff on the ‘approved curriculum and supply lists’?

Only way I’ve been able to get Steinberg stuff in my state for years was BECAUSE of the ‘dongle’. I could put it on some consumable budget as a perishable thumb drive or something, and let the boosters kick in for the cost of the ‘software’ and keep it off the ‘sys-ops’ books.

Sysops are only allowed to install certain things in many places. They have to open firewalls and such if it needs to ‘go online’, and every bit of that requires BOOKS of paper work. So much so, that by the time it’s all cleared, there’s often a NEWER VERSION of the software on the streets. It requires an ‘implementation plan’ that dozens of people who don’t know squat about music have to sign off.

When I was working in the public sector myself…if I wanted Steinberg, I had to ‘pay for it myself’, or find a way to SNEAK IT into inventory.

Now it requires accounts, special bank accounts and more. Much harder to slip in under the radar. Unless every bureaucrat in the state signs off on it…it ain’t happening. So, I hope Steinberg is getting the plane tickets ready so they can hit the ‘institutions’ around the world and get their stuff on the ‘approved lists’.

That would likely involve a major rewrite of the security features of the software. I honestly think it’s entirely unreasonable to go back to old discontinued software and rewriting it just because someone wants to run it much, much later after the dongle has been left behind.

The most sensible and likely least costly thing to do would be to let the license server for eLiceners run for like a decade or so. That to me seems like the better solution. That way they can keep selling the physical dongles a little longer and if you need to run SX or whatever you can put an “old” license on your dongle and run it.

Then again, I think older projects open in newer versions, no? So v12 should suffice.

That’s what they say, and Mac users will need Rosetta, which Apple will not keep for long.

If it can’t host your plugins, just opening the project isn’t enough.

Say you have a library that only comes in VST2, and you’ve put in hundreds or even thousands of hours doing huge templates, expression maps, etc, that can reduce a 6 hour project (without the templates) down to a 2 hour project…

Not only are we talking instrument templates, but loads of reusable copy-paste material that don’t work anymore. Those ‘clips’ are critical in quickly scoring up or sound-scaping some video. A barrel of ‘moods and textures’. Lose the ability to copy and paste all those MIDILOOPS THAT USED A VST2 PLUGIN. Half your mediabay is BROKEN!

If your ‘instrument’ plugins don’t work, importing the project is pretty much back to square one.

And back on the HALion stuff. I haven’t heard yet if the next generation of releases will do VST2 or not. If the answer is ‘no’. I’ll be stuck with HALion and 6 and Groove Agent 5 for a while.

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Do you need the license server to use your dongle? Dont think so. Just the software installed on your pc. Unless you want to activate or “edit” licenses.

No, but dongles don’t last forever, and word is they aren’t producing anymore. Once supplies are gone, My understanding is ‘that’s it’.

I’m looking at over a terabyte of MIDI loops here (the MIDI part is trival, it’s the plugin-specific sound scaping done with it that matters), and as much as half it isn’t going to work anymore unless a few of my bread and butter plugins get VST3 SOON.

They might allow all licensing to work on a soft e-licenser. I’m sure there will be a plan. Like all software companies. They do have a system in places to give you a un-locked product if something should happen to the company. Sure you will be able to always use your software on the host (version) it was supported on. Users should not jump the gun and assume Steinberg won’t look after them…

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OSX is an expensive platform exactly because Apple does this with some regularity. It should be a well-known calculated risk when buying their products.

I really think that if you have spent that much time on it then you either just “freeze” that system or you start or join an effort to make whomever makes that VST2 instrument update it to VST3. I’m really with the people that say that even though some plugin companies say that VST3 is cumbersome or whatever the ones that are more reputable and stable and reliable will update to VST3.

I’ve stopped buying products for some companies when I felt they were behind in upgrades and support, not just because I want to ‘punish’ them but because I realize that if I keep supporting them I might end up in a tricky spot in the future because they’re behind the curve. It’s just a matter of planning really.

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Or better yet. Have at least one solid release under the new licensing system that supports VST2.

None of my other hosts are forcing me to ‘freeze’ anything at this point. At least one developer has told me, (paraphrased) “There is no good technical reason ARM cannot do VST2 natively. There is even less reason Windows versions cannot support it. It’s little more than a power move.”

I’ve been using his plugins for ages, and none of them have ever crashed or caused a problem with Cubase, or any other host.

Now I’m told it’s ‘my problem’? Because a decade ago ‘I chose and used a really good product that WORKS AS ADVERTISED’ I need to freeze here, and fork off to a new system…

If I end up having to ‘freeze’ for long, and updating means years’ worth of content is suddenly broken to the point I have to ‘stay with Cubase 11 and HALion 6’ or start all over, I’d might as well start looking at other DAWs.

I know, there is still time, and maybe we’ll get VST3 for the plugins I’ve so much time and effort invested in. Maybe Sibelius and Finale will magically find a way to support VST3 over the next year or two (I’m not holding my breath on that). Maybe I can bully my clients and force them to invest in Dorico, or whatever, and Lobby the politicians to get it on the ‘ok to buy and implements with the budget lists’…

Or maybe we’ll get a back door to easily roll back to something that works, dongle free.

Then we can all breathe easy.

As long is there is way to get old projects working with relative ease, and a public commitment to make it possible well into the future…Everything I’ve expressed ‘fear’ over here is mute…

Phase it out as quickly or as slowly as they like. Just make it EASY to get into old projects and use old materials/plugins for those of us who need to do so…well into the future, after dongles are rare and difficult to replace.

Does keeping an old server running, along with personnel to do licenses really cost less long term than just doing ONE RELEASE post dongle era with ‘transition to a VST3 world only in mind’ that can ‘do it all’ (VST2 included)?

After that…start cutting out the bloat and redoing whatever they like. It won’t be hard to set up ‘legacy partitions’ and ‘cutting edge partitions’, all on the same rig. Rename a few plugin directories, and launch the Host/Version we need.

Sorry everyone, I’m beating a dead horse now. Gonna let it rest.

We’ll all find out when it happens and go from there.

Thanks

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