Weird behaviour with inputting chord symbols

[mikeheels]

Hi Pianoleo,

Thanks so much for your kind reply and for taking the time to give me all this information.

I will try to follow your advice. I had of course followed step 1. I didn’t know what you describe in point 2. and perhaps that was not there in version 5 which is when I started tweaking my chord symbols.
Perhaps my biggest problem, and reason you see all my tweaks, is definitely the position of slash notes (e.g. G/B, Eb/Bb etc etc), as they almost always seem to be taking too much space and somehow look a bit “less professional” compared to their equivalent Sibelius Scoring Express counterparts. I reckon I have spent hundreds of hours on those and I am now trying to subconsciously recreate what I am used to within Dorico.

Your “apply to all roots” suggestion is of course valuable but unfortunately doesn’t apply to altered bass notes…so if I tweak C/E this tweak won’t apply to G/B, and that is probably why it is taking me so long to tweak pretty much any chord I encounter.

I forgot about the white brackets which I might have tweaked myself and forgotten about it…probably because the overall library option allows you to either have all “add” being bracketed or not, and I sometimes want one bracketed and others non bracketed.

I might give a fresh reset to all Dorico options a go, after having backed up all my current settings. is there a way to do so and start fresh with a completely new installation ?

Thanks a lot!

PS: as a side note…it’s unrelated but perhaps you know this. is there a way for me to input, inside the chord input dialogue, the “-” symbol for a minor chord instead of writing “min” ? THANKS!

[TonH]

@mikeheels

is there a way for me to input, inside the chord input dialogue, the “-” symbol for a minor chord instead of writing “min”

Set this in Engrave Options

[Edit: oops you probably mean not how it’s displayed, but how it’s entered]

I’m afraid not through a setting

Popover entry

m, min, or mi

[mikeheels]

exactly, I meant as an entry…since I have always used “-” I find it a bit annoying having to write something different to achieve that

[pianoleo]

The Chord Kerning Pairs editor wasn’t a thing until Dorico 6, and so we put out an update to Scoring Express last May in order to accommodate the sorts of tweaks that the Chord Kerning Pairs editor allows.

You should find that chord symbols over altered bass notes are tighter than in previous versions of the templates, out of the box.

If you want to Frankenstein in either our changes into your previously tweaked versions of the templates, or bring your previous changes into the newer versions of the templates, the Library Manager is your friend (and has indeed been my friend through various rounds of updates to Scoring Express).

Apologies for not giving fuller instructions just now; I’m typing on a phone in a spare two minutes.

edit: oh - sorry - nothing I can do about the syntax within the chord symbols popover - that’s very much a Dorico question rather than a Scoring Express one.

[mikeheels]

Hi Pianoleo,

Thanks again for your help. I might actually be getting a little lost over here. I tried following your advice but somehow I can’t understand how the Kerning Pairs function works and I will have to take some time and look into the manual.

Still, I don’0t understand why I can’t delete my customisations, as the “trash” icon is greyed out.

I’ve also imported some elements from a Scoring Express template using the library import option…yet some chords look weird and even changing the engraving options settings can’t solve that. HEre’s an example:

Why is the major7 symbol so small? I can’t change that even if I tweak the relevant settings in Engraving Options (e.g. baseline).

I can’t help but feeling that chord symbols in general, and the SE jazz customisation, still look better in Sibelius unfortunately. And I was really looking forward to using Dorico for all my jazz work…but I keep stopping the composition process to sit down and try and make chords look better and more readable.

How do I do a full reset of Dorico (as if I was buying a new computer) so that I can reinstall everything from scratch (SE templates included) ?

Thanks!

Best

-m

[pianoleo]

@mikeheels

Why is the major7 symbol so small? I can’t change that even if I tweak the relevant settings in Engraving Options (e.g. baseline).

It’s impossible to know exactly what you have and haven’t changed from an image - I’d need to see a project file.

I’d hazard a guess, though, that you’ve overridden the size and position of the triangle in Library > Chord Symbols somewhere, shrinking it somewhat from the default, and now your baseline position for major seven chords is set to subscript (which pushes the triangle up and scales it down to whatever’s set at Library > Engraving Options > Chord Symbols > Design > Scale factor for subscript and superscript components).

For Library > Chord Symbols individual overrides can be removed using the Reset To Default button to the left of the Trash can in the bottom left of the dialog.

For Library > Kerning Pairs it seems to be basically all or nothing - start by selecting the relevant pair of fonts in the left side (PetaChords, PetaText), then click the Reset To Default button to the left of the Trash can in the bottom left of the dialog - this will prompt a warning that you’re getting rid of the lot (which means starting from factory settings, not the settings I set up in the Scoring Express templates).

Each file carries its own settings.
Sure, the various dialogs in Dorico have defaults that you can modify, but these only affect newly created projects, and only newly created projects that are created from one of the factory templates or the new empty project. Creating a new project from a Scoring Express template or from a template that you’ve personally saved will always use the settings that are stored within that template.

@mikeheels

I can’t help but feeling that chord symbols in general, and the SE jazz customisation, still look better in Sibelius unfortunately

I’m not going to get too deep into this, but what you’re seeing in your examples above is not how Scoring Express is designed to look! Dorico absolutely gives you enough rope to tie yourself up, as does Sibelius.

[mikeheels]

Thanks Pianoleo.

Would you suggest starting from scratch by opening one of the jazz templates you’ve made from SE, save it as my own, and tweak accordingly following your original procedure (so Engraving Rules first, then kerning pairs, then individual chords) ?

Still I would like to do a full Dorico reset but I still didn’t understand how to.

Thanks

-m

Thanks

[mikeheels]

Also…this is perhaps more a question for the developers:

Why is the trash icon greyed out? I assumed that was the way to delete an existing customisation.

Thanks

-m

[jesele]

Use the circular symbol next to the trash can instead.

Jesper

[Richard_Lanyon]

@mikeheels

Why is the trash icon greyed out? I assumed that was the way to delete an existing customisation.

The trash icon is for deleting custom (user-defined) chord symbols, while the circular “Reset” icon is for resetting (factory-defined) chord symbols to their default appearance.

[mikeheels]

Thanks for clarifying this!

[mikeheels]

Hi Pianoleo

An update…I have managed to clean up all my “Application Support” and “Preferences” files, and reinstall Dorico and the SE Templates. I can see that I had loads of duplicate Paragraph styles, Font Styles etc etc and I am now starting from scratch.

Can I ask for a suggestion, since you have worked on the SE templates yourself?

Basically I am actually working on a “hybrid” template for myself, as I am writing “classical” music which also includes improvisation and chord symbols. In general I prefer the more traditional notation rather than the handwritten jazz.

How would you approach creating such a template? Should I start from one of the SE chamber and then import everything “chord symbols” from one of the SE jazz (like the lead sheet New Real Book one) ? Or should I do the other way around?

Any suggestion is very much appreciated!

Thanks again for your help and insight!

-m

[pianoleo]

Well done for finding those various bits to delete. I’m afraid you’ve caught me in a really busy week; I’m sorry you’ve been looking for answers all day.

I think I’d start a new project from one of the SE Chamber templates, then go to the Library Manager, find an appropriate SE Jazz template (they’re installed to that same place you already mentioned in Application Support, but for reference they’re also in Documents\Scores\Scoring Express Dorico).

You’ll then want each of these Engraving Options bits, and the Chord Symbols Kerning Pairs in the left side:

Click on Font Styles in the left side and grab these ones:

Apply and Close.

That should give you a more reliable Scoring Express (hybrid!) starting point, from which to methodically work through the Engraving Options for Chord Symbols, followed by the Kerning Pairs, followed by individual overrides (as detailed further up the thread).

[mikeheels]

Please, no need to apologise, and I repay appreciate your time and kindness!

I will do exactly that right now!

I have two quick questions:

1. Do you reckon, in general, it’s safer not to mess with other fonts within the project, to avoid potential clashes with spacing and positioning?

2. I’m in the UK, but the SE templates all use American page sizes. I would change them to A4 for parts and A3 if it’s a big orchestral score, or stick to A4 for chamber. Do you reckon I should tweak something in the layout options of the SE chamber template, in order to accomodate the different page size?

THANKS!

-m

[pianoleo]

1. On the whole you should be OK changing out fonts.
2. The Page Templates in the Scoring Express templates are all set up in such a way that changing the page size in Layout Options ought to basically just work. The parts in the Chamber templates are set to have margins of 15mm all round, which is all well and good if you’re using 9x12 paper. My experience of prepping and printing parts on A4 (I’m also in the UK) is that 10mm margins left and right make all the difference for maximising usable space on the page, though for longer works you do need to consider binding methods (taped or stapled is no problem; coil or comb binding might need more room on the inside edge).

[mikeheels]

Thanks so much!

So I’m leaving 15mm for now, and will see later about parts. I’m writing a piano solo set of pieces, so for now I’m good to go with just an A4 score.

I am tweaking a few chords now, but you were absolutely right as the starting point from the SE template is already looking very good.

I believe what happened is I started doing this almost 1 and 1/2 years ago, on different versions of Dorico and probably different versions of the templates. I’m glad I’m starting again from scratch as I believe it will be worth it.

Thanks!

-m

[mikeheels]

Hi @pianoleo

Sorry for asking another thing…

How do I tweak an individual component, in my case the “b” for flat?

Have a look…this what it looks like in Dorico:

…and this is from a Sibelius file I have made using the SE templates:

the flat “b” in Dorico is a bit too small in my opinion…I am not concerned about reading it myself, but I happen to be playing with an amazing world class musician who has a sight impairment. He always prints his charts in A3 so that they scale up, but I already know that that “b” would be too small.

How do I tweak it globally so that it’s always a bit bigger everywhere?

Thanks!

-m

[pianoleo]

I’ve taken a few minutes to follow the steps I detailed in post #33

I’ve tweaked a few chord symbols Engraving Options in order to show minus signs for minor chords and triangles for major seventh chords, and I’ve tweaked the position (specifically the Y offset) for the minus sign itself via a single override to All Roots Minor (but the component itself).

Here’s a screenshot of the result:

I’ll drop you the Dorico project in a private message so that you can compare your project to mine via the Library Manager.

Long story short, I’m not sure what you’ve done to make the flat smaller - it might be that you’ve superscripted it, or that you’ve inadvertently shrunk the component via the Chord Symbols Editor, or something’s still lurking in Application Support that shouldn’t be there, or…

[mikeheels]

Thanks, I’ve sent you the project via message, in case you had any time (don’t worry if you don’t!) to have a look.

I find it weird that I’m finding duplicate font styles:

…especially considering that I had just deleted everything in Application Support, Preference, and reinstalled Dorico and the SE Templates from scratch!

I have seen this happen quite a lot in Dorico for some reason, finding multiple (even 3 or 4) duplicate font styles which I definitely did not create myself.

[pianoleo]

Thanks for sending over another sample project.

For anyone else following the thread, here’s a screenshot of that project:

There are actually three separate causes for the shrunken flats.

1. This Engraving Option is set to superscript, which goes against the Sibelius example you gave above. It should be set to baseline, which will fix not only the positioning but also the size, as superscripted components follow the settings in the same dialog > Design > Scale factor for subscript and superscript components
   
   

Setting this to Baseline fixes some but not all of the flats:

2. If I look at the Gm/Bb override in Library > Chord Symbols… I see this:
   
   

Double-click on the Bb, then select the flat itself, and I see this:

The “1” in my image points to a stock flat sign, the same one that is utilised in any chord symbol featuring a flat sign. I need to reiterate that if you edit this glyph, or the Scale of this glyph, it may affect any chords that utilise this glyph, not just Gm/Bb. As I’ve already said further up the thread:

@pianoleo

Note that if you edit a chord symbol component, those edits will apply to that component wherever that chord symbol component is used. For instance, if you edit the flat glyph in an Eb chord, even though the override may be assigned to only Eb chords, the component edit applies to wherever that particular flat glyph is used (Bb chords, Ab chords, Db, Gb etc.). If you want to make an edit to a component in one chord only, use the plus button to create a new custom component, edit it as necessary and don’t assign it to any other chords.

3. The All Roots 7 override also features an edit to the flat size. My guess is that this was promoted to All Roots from some sort of flat chord (Bb, Ab, Gb or whatever) - I’m not sure it’s editable at this point, short of resetting to default the All Roots 7 override - this is exactly what I’d recommend.

Looking at the sorts of overrides you’ve continued to make in Library > Chord Symbols…, I can’t help but think you’re still ignoring functionality in Engraving Options that does a much more reliable job, with fewer potential traps: if you want superscript components to be higher/lower/bigger/smaller, set the values for 1 and 2 here:

If you want G-/Bb to have the /Bb closer to the G-, go to Library > Chord Symbol Kerning Pairs…, type Gm/Bb into the top of the dialog, grab the / and drag it to the left.

Hit OK and the job’s done.

Again, overrides in the Chord Symbols dialog should be a last resort.

As for duplicate font styles, in my experience these tend to result from importing components/playing techniques etc. in via the Library Manager, where the fonts used for those bits don’t exactly match between source project and destination project.