Why does copying in the Project window using the "Range Selection" tool, copy events BEYOND

Why does copying in the Project window using the “Range Selection” tool, copy events BEYOND the range selected?

Except for this behaviour, the Range Selection tool is intuitive and fast. It happens in both midi and audio parts.
For example (MIDI), I have a long piano part on a Halion track. I use the RS tool to grab a short piano riff early on in that part that I want to put onto a string track. As soon as I glue that new string riff to the parts already existing on that string track, the rest of the piano part midi info appears “downstream” in the string part.
Perhaps some people find that useful.
Is there a way to turn off that behaviour?
The same happens with audio, and the work-around here here is to ‘Bounce Selection’.
But I don’t really need a separate bounced audio event, I just want a copy. A copy of just the range selected, no more, no less.

I’ve been using Cubase since the late 90s. I don’t upgrade very often but a recent catastrophic crash has forced the jump from 8.5 to 13.
No doubt there are a lot of workflow advances I’ve missed, and maybe I’m missing something basic here.
TIA for any advice
Adam

Cubase 13 doesn’t behaves like this, on my end. I tried to reproduce what you have described, with the following steps :

  1. After a quick recording on the instrument track 1, I define a range which partially covers two different MIDI parts of it :

  2. I then record something completely different on an Instrument track 2 :

  3. I do a copy of the range previously defined in the Instrument track 1 and simply paste it on the Instrument track 2 and move it nearly at the end of the last previously existing MIDI part :

  4. I glue the whole content of the instrument track 2 and get this :

In no way I get added part portions of the Instrument track 1 in the Instrument track 2. Just wondering what could be your exact steps to reproduce the issue, as maybe I am missing something… :thinking:

Cubic13, thank you for your detailed answer.
With the two tracks you have as seen in step 2:
could you try selecting a short range from early on in your “Alchemy” track, then pasting that at a similar early point in your “AnalogLAb” track?
That should then give you three parts on the AnalogLab track.
Then perform a “Glue All” command (Option+Glue).
With me, the notes later than the range selected in the Alchemy track would then appear in the upper track.

(You have Solo and Write Automation enabled on these tracks, I doubt that should make a difference.)

Hi again, @adam_baby_dotcom

OK, I see what you mean now. Indeed, selecting a small range of the MIDI part in Instrument 2 :

… and using Alt+[glue tool] :

…will copy also all the following MIDI events, but only in the involved part : if I split the pre-existing part in Instrument 2, the copy is restricted to the events in the first resulting part.

What I didn’t get at first is that you were using the default tool modifier for the Glue function. On my end, I wasn’t, from which the difference. Now, all is about to know if this behavior is by design or not. I’m tempted to say it is, as the tool modifier label in the Preferences > Edit > Tool Modifiers panel is Glue All Following Events, and it does exactly that : the tool modifier takes all the following events of the range selection and add them in the paste destination.

To get only the events range selected as integrated in the destination part, the tool itself without modifier should do the job, BUT… Since I have used the Alt modifier with the Glue tool, I am no longer able to glue just the range selection : it also copy the following events, without glueing the two MIDI parts.

Something is wrong, here, and granted, Cubase Operation Manual isn’t of much help on that one… :thinking:

Interesting point you make about the split part - yes, this behaviour seems to be happening only at the level of the “Part”, for example, I can’t recreate it inside a midi editor window.

Also, you don’t have to use the Alt/Option modifier with the Glue tool for this behaviour to occur, it will still happen with an unmodified Glue.

Just to demonstrate it happens with audio as well:
below are two tracks of audio, the upper part contains three separate events, the lower part contains none.

Using the Range Select tool, you select a Range on the upper part,


You copy that to the lower track, it becomes a separate Part

When you then glue that part to the pre-existing empty part, you find later audio events, OUTSIDE but LATER than the original Range, to appear in the part. Note, the EARLIER audio events don’t appear.

As I said, perhaps some people find this useful.
Not me.
Especially if I’m working quickly and I overlook the stuff that gets added downstream, it can cause a lot of pain and frustration later in the day!
A

Well, then you’re in for a treat. Let’s see how long it takes before the range tool will create parts/events in your project that have the length of 0.0.0.0 - it can happen when moving a selcted range around.

Indeed, but I just realized something else : before applying the Glue tool, try to extend the part ‘range copied’ in the destination track in BOTH directions. You’ll see that even the events BEFORE the left boundary also appear.

Actually, it’s like using the range selection on a part (MIDI or audio - it doesn’t matter) and pasting it on another one, creates a kind of window on this part and that window can be enlarged in both directions : if we extend the horizontal dimensions enough, we get the whole part piled up on the destination one. Glueing the whole thing and you have the two parts that will be played simultaneously with the sound of the destination track, when MIDI parts are involved.

The concept is interesting, but the issue we have here is that the events on the right of the range selection are pasted, no matter how we set the “window” before glueing. :thinking:

Case at hand (with MIDI parts involved) :

  1. I set these two tracks (a “classical” piano and an electric + chorused one) and select the Range tool to make the following selection :

  1. Edit>Copy + selection of the AnalogLab track + Edit>Paste

  1. Using the Selection tool to be able to redimention the portion of the part pasted, I extend it mainly to the left and a little to the right : the events that weren’t inside the initial pasted part boundaries appear.

  1. I select then the Glue tool and click with it, on the pasted part. Result :

  1. I make a Render in Place of the AnalogLab track, with these settings :

  1. The result says it all : we have both an unwanted extension on the right, with all the events up to the right boundary of the original part and all the events on the left, after the pasted part left boundary extension, have been rendered.

Still in search of an explanation, but at this stage, I now believe that it’s a bug.

@Martin.Jirsak
Maybe this one should be reported…

Oh boy. I don’t know if I have grasped this entirely, and I’m not at my Cubase to check.

So.

  • We have non destructive editing. So this means that when we grab a range of something and copy it somewhere else, we can later resize that pasted something (maybe to do a longer crossfade or slip it or something).

But now you’re saying that as soon we glue the thing, it “pops back to its original size”? To the original part that the range was taken from?

And then what sticks out left or right probably has to do with how Overlaps are handled?

So is glueing at fault here or…? (By the way, are you glueing with the command, or the tool?)

Hi,

No. @cubic13 resized the MIDI Part and the MIDI Notes also appeared, as you can see here:

So it was the user’s decision to show the MIDI Notes back after the non-destructive cut.

But in picture 3, after the resize, he has 5 “chords”, and then in picture 4, after the glue, he has 7 “chords”? Where did those 2 chords come from?

Precisely, and that’s one of the issues at hand : these appear, as soon as they are on the RIGHT of the range selection. They are included in the Glue process, no matter what we do…

The main issue is this one : beside the “window” extension that could be subject of debate, there are all the unwanted events included in a given part that are pasted with the range selection, at the right of it and up to the part right boundary.

Yep, the Glue function is obviously at fault as it glues events that are not initially included in the range selection : all the events of the initial part (the one in which the range selection is done) that are on the RIGHT (after, in the timeline - the two chords you have seen in excess, in my example) of the so-called range selection are also glued, and they shouldn’t.

I have used the Glue tool in the toolbar, but using the Edit > Glue command instead leads to exactly the same result…

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Ok, I just tried it and now it’s completely clear to me.

For me it’s unexpected behavior. The reason why?

Here’s another situation (more common).

I have a part with events.

Bar 2, I don’t like it. So instead of erasing it, I will resize the border back to bar 2.

Notice the white events, still there right?

Now, let’s continue and create a new part and put some events inside of it.

Now, glue.

Before:

After:

All’s fine.

HOWEVER

If from here:

we resize the second part to the left, so that it overlaps with the first one, once we glue we get this:

which is the sum of both parts.

It seems that there’s a logic here, that if two parts overlap in any way, glueing will use the original, full length of the part, regardless of set part borders. But if there are many parts that have been resized in my project, how am I supposed to keep track of them? I would just prefer to work with what I’m currently seeing on screen, not having to remember what else resides outside the part’s border.

That being said, I find that if I quickly Shift-X the range just after having Alt-dragged it, and then glue, everything turns out glued ok. Because it’s a “quick destructive edit”, so it ensures that only the currently defined part of the part will be glued together with the otherwise overlapping part that we’re pasting onto.

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Not exactly : on my end and on @adam_baby_dotcom one, ONLY the events on the RIGHT of the range selection are used with it.

Exactly, and from which this thread, rightly created by @adam_baby_dotcom. At this point, another comment. Looking back at my previous post, I wasn’t accurate enough : just after having pasted the range selection, clicking on the Glue tool activates the range selection pasted as a selected part (the background turns black, with the sizing/repeat handles).

Trying instead to use the Edit > Glue command at this stage won’t work : it is greyed out. So, if we want to use this command, we first have to pass from the Range tool to the Selection one, before applying it. It can have its importance, in the perspective of building a related PLE/Macro.

Yep, the Shift+X (Split range command) is a good solution, applied to the range selection just pasted. I am even trying to use it in a macro or even a PLE preset, as an all usable workaround to iron out this “bug”, without much success until now, I must say.

But honestly, we shouldn’t have to use that : again, why ONLY the events on the RIGHT of the range selection is copied with it ? If all the events were copied, making the range selection a way to glue a WHOLE part in another, that would, at least, make more sense…

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Argh, I’m at work again, can’t test. But it’s an easy one to test. One drawn blank part from 1 to 32 let’s say on one track, another part on another track with just one event on bar 2, one event on bar 15, one event on bar 30. Then grab a rough range around 15, paste it on top of the blank part, glue and see what ends up where.

Good point.

Agreed. It’s an unforeseen consequence of non destructive editing. For me, the issue lays in glueing and only glueing, because regardless of the ability to resize part borders and bring events into play, the expectation (at least for me) is that when glueing, we are glueing together parts respecting the borders of each part.

(In fact that gave me an idea for another test; make a pastiche of small one-bar ranges taken from 4 or 5 tracks, all over a single blank part. And see what shows up after the glueing)

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Will try this asap. Thanks for the suggestion…

We’re on the same track. Overall, I think that this issue should be reported to the devs crew, as the Glue tool is not acting as one could expect.

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Test done !

  1. After having created two empty MIDI parts in their respective tracks, I added three notes with the key editor, as shown (the screenshots are rather too extended, but this is to show the tools used at a given stage - I could have reduced some tracks height, but well, once done…) :

  1. I create a range selection more or less around 15.1.1.0 :

  1. I use Ctrl+C, select the second track and use Ctrl+V - the range selection is copied on the second track:

  1. I select the Glue tool in the toolbar :

  1. I click on the range selection with it :

  1. I do a render of the second track that received the range selection :

What more to say ? :thinking:

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:v:t3: Clear as day! Thanks for satisfying my curiosity!

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