Why does WL detect a higher latency value in EXT EFX than Cubase 12.0.6?

This puzzles me, and the two programs present different results on WL Pro 11.2.0 vs. Cubase 12.0.60. WL shows 11.56ms and Cubase shows .52ms. This is using the MOTU M6 with the latest firmware and drivers. In both cases I used the same single external device (Manley/Langevin stereo preamp). Are the two programs so different?

In this domain, the two programs are different. Cubase is designed to have low latency for its usage domain. WaveLab is not. Low latency is technically more challenging, and the resources to develop WaveLab have never been oriented for this.

Hi, PG1 (BTW, why are you a ‘1’ now? I never noticed this before. Has this always been your signature?)
Anyway, back to the differences. I ran into something that I’d like you to hear. Can I send you a Dropbox link? I’ll explain more when I send it, but what you will be hearing is produced in Cubase. I was performing an experiment in Cubase and discovered something seemingly very helpful to mixing a song. I couldn’t duplicate the result using WL or it’s mixdowns, and this is why I created this post. And frankly, I still can’t understand why I cannot duplicate this audio result using WL as a mixdown vehicle.

No idea.

Yes

PG1, these are labeled #1, #2, and #3. (This is a track taken from CD by the artist Chris Stapleton and his recordings are very very good, imo, he has the money and the name to get things right.).

#1 is the original recording, no effect, just the original recording taken from the CD.

#2 is mixed down using only the EXT EFX on the Master bus into a Manley pre. You can load these 2 tracks into a DAW and see hear the similarity, although the volume of #2 is slightly less than the original and in the blown up view of the wave files. you can see a slight difference between the 2 wave files - but except for the volume - they are not that different.

#3 is done loading the # 1 and #2 track back into Cubase - AND - reversing the polarity of the #2 track and then exporting the resultant wave file. No effects, no EXT EFX out or in.

I have duplicated this process with an Allison Krauss track (another artist known for her very good quality recordings) and I get the same results. What I hear in recording #3 is the ‘sides’ of the recording, the various voice and instrument parts with different amounts of delay and reverb added. This is in the original recording, sure, but here it is isolated. And actually this helps me in my mixing work. I can hear the delay/reverb production involved in mixing the record. Do you agree with my conclusion? If not, please tell me what you think you are hearing? Thank you

PG1, hm, did you get the tracks?

There is nothing to play…

Interesting. How do I get these Dropbox links directly to you? Does Steinberg have a dropoff link?

Actually I’m not sure why this 3rd track isn’t nulled.

Never expect track nulling when you send audio through an external FX loop because “outside” WaveLab, the audio can be altered. And also, even if the audio has a very minor change, the difference between two signals, A - B, might be quite hearable.

It is especially a matter of phase. If the phases of A and B are strictly equal, A-B will be more or less a little hearable.

But if the difference in phase between A and B is even very small, the difference can be quite hearable.
What I am talking about can be easily experimented with in WaveLab by using a test stereo sine wave, and playing the difference between the left and right channels (there is an option for that in the Master Section). If you play so, no sound. Now, if you remove simply a single sample eg. from the right channel (to make it shorter by 1 sample), then the A-B is already quite hearable. This is counter-intuitive, but that’s the reality.

My feeling from the audio you sent me, is that the sound difference has something to see with phases. But I can’t diagnose further.

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I understand, Philippe, and thank you for taking the time to give this a listen. I sincerely appreciate your time and help. Your explanation has currently sent me on a path to examine my patchbay connections, starting first with the Manley pre. :slight_smile: It’s part of a 3 rack space unit, the Dual Voice Limiter. When you ‘breakout’ the two functions, the preamp from the limiter and install them in the patchbay, I could have reversed the patchbay connections on the preamp. (The preamp doesn’t have any signal indicators because typically it feeds into the limiter that has two VU meters.)

Well, wait, I can check that right now with by isolating the left and right outputs. OK, these were reversed… Stupid mistake on my part, and good ears on yours, Philippe. I’ll try the null process again and things will probably be as expected. As luck would have it, I only have two stereo outboard preamps/limiters/comps and the other one checks out fine. Thank you for the listen and your input, Philippe!