Almost certainly a System Break set to wait until the next system break, thus putting everything into one enormous system.
I tried to save the work but this appears also in the saved project after Dorico full exit and computer complete shutdown and turned on again… so this is not a system problem but a program problem. ruined my work. I don’t have system breaks at least not that I am aware of.
When I am forced to change notes positioning in engrave mode due to accidentals clutter I do get a system break notice but I can erase it and all seems to be ok.
Very strange and distractive behavior.
There is a System Break signpost visible in your screenshot, at bar 66. It’s purple. Zoom in as much as you need to in order to select it (there’s clear space above the 9/16 time signature).
In the properties panel turn off the “Waits for next system break” property.
Restarting the program or the computer will not help. The System Break is there because you (or someone working on the file) put it there, either directly, or via the Make Into System or Make Into Frame buttons, or by typing comma or period to push bars onto previous systems or next systems. This isn’t some glitch that is Dorico’s “fault”.
Many thanks for your reply. Will look into it a.s.a.p.
Thanks.
Many thanks for your comment.
Funny thing… I deleted that system break sign post and now its o.k…
I have compared bar 66 with another recently saved project of mine and there is no difference between the two versions… I don’t know how the sys. break came to bar66 and I am the only one working on this… I wasn’t even aware that a system break existed in bar 66 - thanks very much for pointing that one out…
I’d like also to ask you if you may - how do you interpret rhythmic sign posts in m68, 76, 78 because I wasn’t able to trace my alleged mistakes there…
Also if you can help me with a to regarding to accidentals spacings as I resolve to solve this using engrave mode - but this method may results with system breaks .
I was trying to increase short notes min value to 4 but that caused bar splits across systems even though I didn’t allow this in the layout.
Please find project attach.
rites of nature and man 300324 - collision - for review.dorico (1.8 MB)
The red signposts at 68 and 76 indicate a non-standard barline. In some cases that means a hidden time signature; in other cases it means a barline that isn’t defined by the time signature. In your case it’s a barline that’s not defined by the prevailing time signature, even though it’s in the same place a standard barline would be. If you select and delete the barline immediately before the signpost (at the end of bar 67 and at the end of bar 76) you’ll find that the signpost disappears.
I can’t see anything odd at bar 78 - there’s no signpost there as far as I can tell. Maybe you meant 73. If so, same as above. My guess is that in all these cases you added a barline manually, then later decided to define the time signature as 9/16 (or 2/8 or whatever). It’s the adding a barline manually that causes the red signpost.
As to increasing the short note note spacing, I couldn’t replicate the issue of System Breaks being inserted mid-bar; I did find that Dorico would be forced into putting e.g. a single 1/8 bar on a system of its own (as it was immediately followed by a purple System Break signpost that had been manually added).
edit: I could indeed find an example of Dorico doing this, but I’m not sure you can have it both ways: if you’re defining a minimum space for short notes, and telling Dorico not to split bars across systems, and filling a bar with notes such that the width of those notes plus four spaces between each of them results in a longer system than the width of the page, Dorico has to break one of those rules.
I think actually increasing the Note Spacing value for short notes to 4 spaces (the default is I think 1 3/5 spaces) is going to make your accidental collision situation worse, not better, as you’d be asking Dorico to put an unnecessarily large gap between each short note, even single notes that have no accidentals at all. This prevents Dorico from using the extra space in a system where it’s actually needed. Try getting the layout the way you want it, then Lock Layout (from the left panel of Engrave mode), then decrease the Note Spacing value for short notes, and I think you’ll get a much better automated result.
The fact of the matter is that Dorico does aim to be reasonably even in its spacing, and that does mean that if you have stacks of accidentals they won’t necessarily all be handled well, and some manual Note Spacing adjustments may need to be made locally (using the Note Spacing submode of Engrave mode).
Thanks very much dear Daniel for your very helpful and so very invested respond.
Rhythmic Sign post issue was solved thanks to your very scholarly guidance.
Also I have removed all manual changes I have made so far in engrave mode relating to note heads spacing issues and I’ll try to follow your guidance in an attempt to get some balance - see how it works.
One thing though while relating to your paragraph # IV (edit:),
I have mentioned I didn’t check to allow Dorico to split a bar across two sys. , It is how Dorico deals with breaking a rule that serves the difference - meaning that instead of splitting a bar - it could have created an empty space in the systems and move the whole bar on to the next system even if the full width of the system on a page is not fully utilized.
{In fact this is how it was originally written ( by hand using a Rotring art pen and 3 Rapidographs with a ruler and yes its very clear and all is written within the frame work of one piano and here I spread the material across two pianos and still I get cluttered accidentals - alas the peace in a solo piano form was not playable - sorry for lengthening here… )}
To conclude I’ll try follow closely after your advises.
Also - if you may be aware of a way to prevent tie arches from crossing note head and meters ( let’s say by allowing a space on the tie where ever there is an item interferes with the tie arch trajectory )- this will be lovely.
I find that these things are an obvious but somehow they are not dealt with well - to my opinion - in this software.
Many many thanks for your willingness and contribution.
Best of health.
Cheers.
Rami.
You can erase the background of time signatures in Engraving Options as follows:
Great - does this exist also for note heads?
Exactly what I meant.
Many thanks.
I don’t think so, but perhaps one of the real Dorico experts can chime in to confirm. I find that dealing with ties in music (like piano stuff or guitar music where you often need multiple voices) and how they interact with stems and noteheads is just a very tricky thing in general.
I’m not Daniel.
If I take the file you posted earlier, in Dorico 4, and set the Note Spacing for short notes to 5 spaces, the only bar that gets split across a system is bar 22. You might be under the impression that the dotted line midway through the bar is a more valid split point than the last quaver of the bar, but that dotted line is just a dotted line. It’s not a barline; it doesn’t have a new bar number.
Beginning of bar 22:
End of bar 22:
The whole bar has to take up more than one system, because the width of the notes + five spaces between each of the little notes amounts to more than the possible width of a single system.
If you force it onto a single system, with the Note Spacing set to five spaces, you can see this in the values at the right edge of the system, in Engrave mode. The System would be “full” if 186.2 spaces were used, but this bar requires 200.3 spaces.
As to ties: no, you’ll need to figure out how best to move them so that they’re clear of notes.
No, but I think you can take it as a compliment!
Thanks very much for your loyal effort and scholarly comments and guidance and my apologies for replacing you with Daniel.
Re bar 22. I added manually the dotted lines to describe the evolution of a 2nd texture emerging within the 1st and am aware that it is not a bar henced the note values, this starts rather early in the piece and perhaps I need to rethink that, I didn’t want to use “formulated” meters - so that the page will not look like a collection of algebraic drills… but schoenberg did so and many more… in this work - there are many meter changes. I although though this will consume much needed space.
You have mentioned that you recommand actually reducing the min. Short note value so I took that road. After changing few def. In ctrl+shft+e for accidentals I think the layout is ok.
Yet - having more room for short notes that are very common in the piece ( there is a slow section snd I wished I could have changed layouts but introducing an extra flow wont allow separate layout that will not heart the previous flow - I think… and also couldn’t yet found how tobdo so seemlesly… it would have been lovely if one could simply select chunk ohf music and set a new flow over it with a new layout - seamlessly) will clarify the work a great deal and will allow room for dynamics well spaced ( but there are settings for that ), I’ll check it though with the values you have suggested, Perhaps this bar needed a split ( meter wize ) and thus measures like this.
Regarding empty spaces for tie arches. They exist in Dorico but not used widely enough whichbis a shame.
- Erase background for meters
- The same for hairpins.
It would be just lovely to set these settings in the department of note heads, beams, accidentals and anything a tie arch can cross and thus cause a clutter…
Many thanks for your comments truly.
Wishing the very best.
I admit not always I fully understand this software… and sometimes find myself missing the very obedient pen… but I do also get a performance here… certainly it has its virtues.
Cheers
You do have the option of introducing a Note Spacing Change wherever suits the music. In Engrave mode, select the note or rest where you want to insert the change, then Engrave > Note Spacing Change > set the new values. These carry through either to the end of the Flow or to the next Note Spacing Change, whichever comes sooner.
Cool thanks for that guidance , I’ll check it out a.s.a.p.
.
Cheers.