Importing xml files from Sibelius into MuseScore contains the fingering at least as text.
Will Dorico 1.2 also be able to import fingerings from xml files?
Thanks.
It will import fingering that is specified properly in MusicXML files, which it typically is from Finale, but not from Sibelius, I’m afraid.
Thanks for the reply.
If Dorico at least import them as text then this will be a time saver for me.
Will it be possible to filter fingering?
Thanks.
I’m afraid Dorico will not even import those fingerings as text items, I’m sorry to say.
I’m sure this behavior was thought through, but I can’t help but say that it’s very odd. If I import an XML file with a bunch of markings, I feel like Dorico should not just delete them because it doesn’t understand them. If nothing else, it should import them as Shift-X text. There should be a way to select a shift-X text item and tell Dorico, “This is a tempo” or “This is a technique” or “This is a dynamic.” Dorcio’s incredibly semantic approach is beautiful, but only if is actually extensible in a way to “understand” all the markings a composer might want to use. Just throwing out the stuff it doesn’t understand is a strange strategy.
Hi Jeffrey
I can a only agree with you.
Sometimes it hard to accept that even a freeware app can do better as far as this is concerned.
+1
I would also like to see everything imported in Dorico.
I write scores for musicals where very often I have to write a lot of character names on a single staff.
For example I just had a look to a particular score with a three voices polyphonie.
There are 22 character names in the first voice, 13 in the second voice and 1 in the third voice.
It is not because there are so much characters in this piece but simply because a few characters alternate with each other to sing a voice.
Just to have the text imported is already a great help and they do not have to necessarily be semantically categorized.
It is very easy in Dorico to assign a paragraph style to these texts and all is well.
But having to retype every single character name can be sometimes really very laborious.
I don’t know if “importing anything, no matter what” is a good idea. Garbage in - garbage out: If Dorico has no way of interpreting something correctly and fitting it into its intricate and very thoughtfully constructed object model, then it shouldn’t simply dump it into the score as text. What would be the benefit of that?
Either the score is good as it is - then why import it into Dorico? Or it needs to be improved - then you don’t want to carry around all the dead weight that dozens of unconnected text boxes would be. Imagine the frustration you’d feel when you change something in the score and the fingerings/chord symbols/whatever don’t react accordingly. I’d say it’s best to cut your losses at this point. If you need to make the switch to a better scoring program, allow it to do its magic unencumbered by all that ballast.
Fingering is absolutely no ballast. Neither would be instructions.
And I do import because the printout of Dorico is more beautiful for me than Sibelius‘.
I don’t think Dorico is to blame for bad XML export of other programs. XML is an “open” format, so hopefully someone will come up with a little tool that parses XML files and fixes common problems (or asks the user for assistance on how to solve problems). I could think of a simple rule-based architecture like “if you find text objects that contain only single-digit numbers, convert them to fingering text”. That could actually work within a web browser… Any javascript wizards in here? 
Pietzcker, “garbage” is in the eye of the beholder — and in this case, Dorico tends to see a lot of garbage. Any tempo marking, expressive marking, or technical instrument Dorico doesn’t immediately recognize is thrown out. I realize this started as a discussion of fingering that Sibelius doesn’t properly export as XML, but my point is that Dorico shouldn’t just ignore something it doesn’t understand. A composer should be able to write a tempo marking like, “Easy-going, but with a halting confusion” and not have it considered “garbage” on import.
I have to point out that no one from the Dorico Team referred to any XML data as garbage.
At the same time, I can see why Dorico would not want to import information that either caused its layout engines to malfunction or which caused confusion or extra work for the Dorico user. Perhaps the thinking was that including something as text that gave the impression it was something else would be a mistake, especially if a later version of the program intended to import the information in a way that fit the Dorico model.
Sure, any such decision will cause disagreements between those who want text boxes they can move around as opposed to those who would find typing in from scratch to be easier. A parallel here is the confusion caused by Finale’s (before version 25) scanned input, which some users found helpful and others found caused rhythmic chaos when different layers became mixed.
Would I like to see Dorico import fingerings from XML? Sure, even though I seldom use it. In a future version it will no doubt happen if it is at all possible.
I think we place a bit of an impossible task before the developers… if the “standard” shifts and each developer implements it differently, it is quite difficult for them to interpret that data. How would you handle importing from one program that anchors the objects to notes, and a different program that anchors to measures, and yet another that anchors relative to the page or system? You’d end up with things all over the place. No doubt this is what they are trying to avoid until the process becomes easier to deal with. Couple that in with the fact that different programs encode certain elements of a score differently… I think a little patience is due here. Either that, or we need to start lobbying the XML consort more strongly to tighten up the standards (and wait for everyone to get on board).
How does Finale “properly specify” something as fingering, and thus gets imported via XML? What is Finale doing with that text that Sibelius doesn’t? t curious as to how it can happen from one program but not the other.
There is a MusicXML technical element called fingering (details here), which Finale uses, but Sibelius does not. In Finale, you typically create fingerings using expressions, and the Dolet plug-in has a lot of sophisticated heuristics to identify fingerings and create the appropriate elements on export. In Sibelius, you typically create fingerings using text objects in the Fingering text style, and Sibelius exports these items as regular text.
When we originally wrote the MusicXML export features in Sibelius, years ago, had we had more time we could have eventually started implementing the kinds of heuristics that Michael Good implemented for Finale, but I will point out that we were, er, given the opportunity to seek employment elsewhere not long after we shipped the first version of MusicXML export in Sibelius 7, so we didn’t have much of a chance to improve it further back then.
If importing fingerings from Sibelius is important to you, please contact Avid and ask them to prioritise the correct encoding of fingering in MusicXML files exported from Sibelius.
@Daniel at Steinberg
I am aware that the topic is about importing fingering from xml files, but as my question has to do with the overall xml import subject I thought it is not absolutely necessary to create a new thread.
Finale has a quite usefull function that allows to organise all kind of “Expressions” in “Categories”.
Per default there are categories for Dynamics, Tempo Marks, Tempo Alterations, Expressive Text and Rehearsal Marks.
What is very nice is that one can create his own categories and these user categories can inherit all the usefull system features that other categories have.
Daniel do you know if these Finale categories (the user categories) can be translated through XML?
Or is it something one should also request at Make Music as you suggest for the fingering and Sibelius?
Daniel,
Thanks for explanation. I suspect asking Avid for anything is waste of breath…
The obvious way to add fingering in Finale is by using Articulations (configured and mapped by default to keys 1 to 5) rather than expressions…
Apologies for my incorrect Finale terminology. Me attempting to sound authoritative about Finale is a little like watching a cat walk on its hind legs: you’re surprised it can be done at all, but the result is wholly unconvincing. The general thrust of what I wrote, however, is absolutely correct.
Here’s a thought… why not create a “place holder” field (or some other name for it). When you import an XML file, what ever Dorico doesn’t understand is assigned to this “place holder”. Once imported, the user can right click the “place holder” and add the information to “fingerings” or “dynamics” or whatever, and Dorico then reassigns the confusing piece of Text/Marking/etc. to the correct place, and it semantically works under the premise of Dorico.
For things outside what Dorico currently understands, have it remain in the “place holder” field.
Just a thought… not trying to start a fight.
Robby