1.1 Baroque ornaments and figured bass?

Are these implemented in the 1.1 update so that Dorico becomes more usable for baroque music? Including the fix of the trill and mordent swap? Look forward to updates that will make the program work for me. Also beam slanting, avoiding wedges and other beam issues.

Yes, I’ve added some more ornaments, and have fixed the mordent/short trill issue. You can see the ornaments now available from the panel in the attached image. There is no figured bass support in this update, I’m afraid.

Still, the extra ornaments are a most welcome addition. Thank you

That was the easy bit - now make them all play back properly! :wink:

(But just having all the symbols is a big improvement, for those who want to use them).

Bach to the drawing board?
(Sorry for the mordant comment.)


I was hoping also for the simple cross … (+). But those sure take care of pretty much all of Bach!

Claude, do you mean the one described as “Shake” on this page? If so, I can certainly add this one too.


It’s Shake3 (U+E582) as you said. I transcribe a great deal of French baroque music and this one is pretty standard for non keyboard music. Even Rameau, who uses a complex set of half circles and slurs for his keyboard music, uses the cross (shake) in his orchestra scores.


How is that shake normally interpreted in performance, Claude?

To properly write French baroque music (I do it a lot), we also need the “french violin clef”, i.e. the violin clef on the first line of the stave.

Almost exclusively as a shake starting on the upper note and on the beat. But if the preceding note is one step higher and slurred into the ornamented note, then that preceding note is treated as an appoggiatura to the next note and an even-numbered shake (generally just two notes) is executed before the beat. Although in Rameau and many others, the cross is placed above the note, other facsimiles, such as Chapentier’s Médée, actually place it to the left of the note. I can send you examples later today if you wish.

The cross seems to have been for non keyboard players (or non keyboard playing composers), Rameau in his Pieces de Clavecin en Concert gives precise ornaments for the harpsichord (tremblement, pincé, port de voix etc) yet gives for the violin the cross, so it can mean anything I would say…
I would say: the play back of ornaments is not a priority, there are so many possibilities. the sources say: you can only learn it when you here it played by a master (they did not have Youtube etc :wink: Focus on the notation! Why are not all available Bravura ornaments added? Is that a lot of work? If I can be of any help for figured bass tell me.

I agree it’s not the highest priority thing missing from Dorico right now. (Personally I would rank “having a user-defined number of staves for keyboard instruments” higher).

On the other hand, if there was just one possibility in Dorico - the ability to record live real-time playback in Play mode - that would handle everything, and it would be useful to many more users than those who want Baroque ornaments!

The cross is also present in Baroque music outside of France, at least in later editions.
See, for example, this edition of the Corelli Op. 5, edited by Joseph Joachim. You’ll find the cross all over the violin part.

Thanks to all for the additional discussion in this thread.

I will add the + shake ornament, and although we don’t have any immediate plans to implement playback of ornaments just yet, we do have some basic data concerning which notes are usually played for a given ornament relative to the note to which the ornament applies, which will ultimately be used for playback and for calculation of the appropriate accidentals based on the notes affected by the ornament, so I just like to make sure that I have that basic data set up correctly at this stage.

I will also add the French violin clef as requested by Oboino.

Finally, to answer this question:

Many of the remaining ornaments need to be positioned in comparatively complex ways relative to the noteheads to which they apply, e.g. to the left or to the right of the noteheads rather than above or below them. We don’t have this kind of positioning code implemented as yet, so those kinds of ornaments wouldn’t work properly.

The other ornaments that go above notes could be added without too much additional work, but there is enough difficulty in naming them and coming up with some researched values for the basic data about which notes are played for a given ornament relative to the main written pitch is sufficiently time-consuming that I can’t commit to doing it now.

Thank you for the French violin clef as well. I had asked about it before the very first release of Dorico but I admit I dared not ask this time. I don’t use it that often, but when transcribing it’s really reduces the possibility of transposing mistakes, so I will be glad to have it available.

I have no idea how Dorico technically interprets ornaments, but…

Would it be possible to create a “user defined/user modified” widget for interpretation of ornaments?

I could imagine a menu:

  1. to define/modify an ornament (which defines a series of pitches/durations relative to the underlying tone and links this to a shape)
  2. an option to playback on the beat or before the beat (the default could be simply ‘do nothing’)
  3. this could be defined globally at the template level and (ideally) modifiable at the instance level.

Thank you! Both the shake and French violin clef will be welcome additions.

Janus, we do intend to make it possible to define your own ornaments in the future, but this is not a high priority right at the moment, I’m afraid.