I’ll value some advice re the alignment of swing rhythms with triplets, in notated form and for playback purposes.
In the example below, with light swing indicted in the score, I’d like the Kick in the second bar, beats 1 and 4, to sound with the final triplet notes in the Toms.
Is the above notation correct? It seems counterintuitive to expect the Kick and Tom to align when they are not visually represented this way, but notating the Kick (in the second bar) in triplet form looks far too messy on the page and would mean that the syncopated swing rhythm on beat 2 would be represented differently to beats 1 and 4.
I thought it might be possible to align the notes in the piano roll (Play mode) without changing the visual appearance of the part but cannot figure how to do this.
All advice will be greatly appreciated. Sample, cut-down score attached.
Things like this are less standardised than many other aspects of notation so there’s much more of a gray area between correct and incorrect. Considering the fact that most real-world swing isn’t meant to be exact triplets, the way you have it here might make the most theoretical sense. But it does look confusing for a sight-reader.
I think I’d go for putting the kick in a triplet too, theoretical correctness be damned. In that case (and in general) you can reduce the clutter by keeping everything including the kick in a single up-stem voice.
Thanks for responding so quickly - much appreciated.
After consulting @Lillie_Harris fab documentation, modifying the piano roll to align the rhythms is much easier than I expected. (Apologies, I should have done this before posting!)
I’d value input from any drummers out there re the most efficient/cleanest way to notate the second bar… writing from the drum kit is a steep learning curve for me.
This seems a very elegant solution that resolves the playback issue and ensures the notation reflects how the part should be performed. Thank you for taking the time to share this idea - I wasn’t aware that triplets could be hidden - thank you!
Thanks also to others for confirming that the syncopated Kick notes need to visually align with the triplets in the Toms - much appreciated.
Derek’s solution works like a dream. However, after a little more experimentation, I’m wondering why Dorico’s (?) playback of swing and triplet rhythms in the drum kit (as in the original post) differs to the in the syncopated notes in the second bar of the accompanying bass part:
I thought it would be necessary to use Derek’s hidden triplet trick to ensure perfect alignment (playback of syncopated notes in the second bar), but this is not the case: they sound at exactly the same time! It is as if Dorico performs the Kick rhythm differently to the bass. How can this be, I wonder…?
I’d say that because your kick is in a tuplet, it is at an exact rhythmic position. If you have the rhythmic feel set to swing (and there are multiple types) then it isn’t quite as “exact” but more human-like.
What you say makes perfect sense, but I think there’s something else in play here (forgive the pun!).
In the screenshot below (light 8th swing indicated, tempo slowed down to help reveal the issue, refer to attached audio), the first two bars make use of Derrek’s hidden triplet idea - the Kick is perfectly synchronised with the bass + trombone part, as expected.
In the next two bars, the Kick is not synchronised with the Toms and bass (as initially reported - light 8th swing and triplet rhythms do not coincide).
However, if I delete the Toms part, the Kick (notated without the hidden triplet trick) and bass part are synchronised. This is not the expected behaviour given that the Kick was not synchronised in the second example.
Here’s a cutdown score that illustrates the issue. Unless I am mistaken, it seems to be the case that Dorico interprets swing differently if a triplet is also in use in the same part (drum kit, in this case). It’s subtle, but noticeable once identified, me thinks!
Thank you for introducing me to swing ratios! 2:1 swing 8ths (fixed) produces consistently accurate results in terms of triplet/duplet alignment in playback (and is similar in character to light swing).
"2:1 swing 8ths (fixed)
Extends the first note in a pair of eighth notes to be twice as long as the second, creating a strict triplet 2:1 ratio. This is also known as a “triplet swing”. This ratio is maintained regardless of the tempo by default.
Apologies for a follow-up question that perhaps would benefit from a new thread.
I’ve used the hidden triplet technique in the Kick to align the final note in this pattern. Ideally, I’d like the final tied note in the Kick to show as a crotchet to match the first half of the bar, but perhaps this isn’t possible in this context?
You could put the last eighth on the 2 of a sixteenth-note triplet, that way the previous note can indeed be shown as a quarter. That being said, I would advise against this entire hidden-triplet rabbit hole. To me it looks too much like a misprint, and if I encountered that in the wild I’d start to mistrust the rest of the score too.
I’ve just shown the notation to some colleagues and they all considered it to be confusing. Thank you for prompting me to reflect on this issue once again.
The tempo indication 2:1 swing 8ths (fixed) resolves the playback alignment issue, so I’m going to revert to the following notation:
It seems to me that this is correct in terms in standard notation practice (if such a thing exists!), and it will be obvious to the drummer that the syncopated kick notes should be swung to align with patterns in the rest of the pit band.
Thank you once again to everyone for sharing your time and expertise.
