Alternative piano fingering

[John_Ruggero]

The addition of a single setting in Engraving Options>Fingering>Substitutions>Alternative, Editorial and Cautionary would make it possible for me to add a single line of alternative fingering without the workaround of text:

Enclosure for alternative fingerings: None

I could then position two fingerings over each other by making use of “Placement of alternative fingerings” set to “Below” and adjust the “Gap between alternative fingerings when arranged vertically” under Advanced Options to allow a line to be drawn between the two sets of fingering.

The same system could be used for chords if all the fingering of the main fingering could be gathered together vertically and the same for the secondary fingering so that a line could separate them.

Although I do not use parenthesized alternative fingering, in my experience, it is generally positioned “Above” the main fingering as with non-parenthesized alternative fingering, not “Below” which is given as the only option. I just checked through the Schnabel and Arrau editions of the Beethoven Sonatas to verify this. And when several such parenthesized fingerings occur in a sequence, a single set of parentheses encloses all of them as a group.

[dspreadbury]

I think in an ideal world we would provide a more automatic means of showing two sets of fingerings separated by a line, though the layout challenges of such a thing are formidable. How many notes/chords without fingerings would cause a break in the line? How would Dorico determine the angle of the line? But thank you for the feedback. I know from the previous discussions on this matter on another forum you consider this essential functionality.

[John_Ruggero]

Thank you, Daniel. I wasn’t asking Dorico to draw lines. I was unclear and would like to try again, if you have the patience to listen.

It is NOW possible to apply two finger numbers to a single note one over the other by selecting:

“Enclosure for alternative fingerings: Italicized” and

“Placement of alternative fingers: Below”

This capability is very helpful and takes me very close to what i need. All I need now is the ability to place a non-italicized alternative fingering similarly.

[dspreadbury]

Sorry, John, I did understand your request. I’m a bit reluctant to do it this way because in general we try to avoid combinations of settings that would produce ambiguous results, and setting the alternative fingering to be shown with no enclosure and without being italicised would certainly cause it to be ambiguous, even when it’s shown below the “main” fingering, unless you go on and add your extra lines, etc. I’ll definitely consider it though!

[John_Ruggero]

Now I understand your concern about a separating line, Daniel. Thank you for your explanation and for considering my request.

[mipi]

Hi everyone, I have a question about an alternative fingering. As the name says, we put usually cautionary fingering as an alternative for a fingering, which will be recommended as a first choice. If I read a piano score, I see a number first, which stands close to the reference note. Only after that - a finger which is more far away. Why Dorico puts an alternative finger in brackets close to the note and a main recommendation more far away? It is very unpleasant to read. The same with an alignment - Dorico alines an alternative fingering with a reference note, but not a main fingering. I could tweak this probably in Engrave Mode, but it would be quite time consuming.

What is a logic behind? Is there a way to do it in an opposite way? I was trying to put in the popover few custom combinations, but couldn’t find a solution.

Here is a screenshot what I would like to get (mockup):

[John_Ruggero]

Hi mipi. If Dorico puts the alternative closer to the note than the main fingering as the only possibility (I am still not a Dorico user, so I can’t check on it). then that needs to be corrected, because it is standard practice to put the main fingering closest to the note, as you said.

However, I must point out that the parenthetical system for showing alternate fingering is gravely flawed, because alternate fingering is often in groups of successive numbers, which is best shown above the main fingering separated by a line. And there can be several sets of such alternates, above and below the notes.

[mipi]

@John_Ruggero

successive

Dear John, I agree, the separation by the line will be very useful as well. Specially in in groups of successive numbers. There are quite few options to choose from Engraving Options, but still nothing common:

Dorico is famous because of its intelligence and automation. But I miss often a possibility just to write in a popover a result I would like to see, for example 3/(4) or (4)/3 etc… There must be a way to overwrite defaults (for example like ForceDuration does).

[John_Ruggero]

Yes, as you said, the options contain every possibility except the standard one. I suggested the None option to Daniel is as a way to be able to use a line, and he was kind enough to provide it. Not being interested in the parenthetical system, I neglected to make your point. Perhaps they will see this and provide this option as well.

I have seen the parenthetical system mainly in British publications. In the Craxton/Tovey Beethoven Piano Sonatas the main fingering is closest to the note and the parenthesized alternate fingering is generally above or below, rather than beside the main fingering except in special cases. Consecutive series of alternate fingerings are enclosed in a single set of parenthesis.
I could find nothing about alternate piano fingering in Elaine Gould’s “Behind Bars.”