An open plea to Steinberg

[teknatronik]

@Lydiot

“How has user feedback shaped the software’s recent development?”

“We consider user feedback to be the most vital part of our development work. We work closely with our customers and take their feedback very seriously. That‘s why any feature you find in Nuendo has been tested in real-world studio environments before being released. For Nuendo 7, we discussed feature proposals with large game and post-production companies long before we started the development. I consider the most important aspect to be ‘listening’.”

Wait and see…

This is marketing at its finest. Compare and contrast:

"the majority of features and capabilities newly available in Nuendo 7 are made for audio post production. This includes the whole re-conforming

"any feature you find in Nuendo has been tested in real-world studio environments before being released. "

With Dongo commenting on the fact that VCAs have been broken since the very beginning of Nuendo 7 and has STILL not been fixed:

@Luis Dongo

This issue is a high priority. If it was an easy fix, of course we would have done it already, but it isn’t. I am not a developer, so I can’t really get too much into the technicalities of it (I think that wouldn’t be interesting for you anyway) and I could start giving you all kinds of excuses, but I don’t think you care about them either.

The truth is we are working on it, but promising you that it will be available very soon would be irresponsible from my side, because I know that is not realistic and I don’t want to be apologising again in a few weeks for giving you false hope. **If we get to fix the problem before the next update, we will add the fix to that update, but if not, unfortunately we will have to wait until the next one to

Regards**

**So, like Guillermo in the Gearslutz forum, they keep telling people how Nuendo has this great feature, and that we presumably should buy it - yet nobody tells anyone that the function is ibroken, has been broken from the beginning, was broken during our one and ONLY update so far, and is till not fixed with no fix in sight…

Marketing. It’s like the opposite of truth.[/quote]

Very interesting this post. I have never seen it so blatant.

I have to say I appreciate your honesty.**

[karlito]

@barryfell

@karlito

Yeah, I am not holding my breath either.
I am actually surprised to see how many users got so excited about the fact that a marketing guy is indirectly addressing
us in time of crisis, saying…pretty much nothing, and the fact that he had time to write that message but had no time to post it himself I take even less seriously.

You call some non-critical bugs and issues a crisis? There are very very few people for whom Cubase issues are crisis (as in them not being able to use it at all when they need it for work)

It’s not their severity, but their sheer number. Over 50 new issues posts appeared in the issues forum in less than 2 weeks + 37 collected issues from Cubase8, plus the not yet collected ones, the left over ones from 7 and 7.5, the vst transit ones…Let’s not forget the ± 100 fixed or half-fixed issues that have been introduced in Cubase8.
That’s a LOT of bugs by any standard, even more so since these were the price we paid for not more than 10 fairly unremarkable new features that C8 brought along. Over a 1 year period, between 8 and 8.5 we’re looking at around 150+ bugs that have been introduced along with the 15-20 new features.

This, along with the fact that this thread has reached 10 pages of angry posts and almost 7000 views would indeed make me think that yes, this is a situation that requires some sort of damage control. Wouldn’t you agree?

[noiseboyuk]

@MoPro

As you point out… AVID’s implementation of Ideascale = subterfuge, and just a way to silence some of the unwanted negative reviews on the forum! And also… who’s to say that AVID doesn’t somehow manipulate the result of the voting in some way?

I mean… how many votes does it take for an “Idea or issue” to be valid?

It’s not possible to do a worse job with IdeaScale than what Avid have done with it. By entirely ignoring the end results, of course they make a mockery of the whole thing. No need to invoke conspiracies with skewing the results, theirs is a rather more blunt technique.

What it DOES do, imo, is rather nakedly expose just what an atrotious job Avid are doing, which can inform your decisions and allow posts like this to be written - How Many Of The Top 25 Pro Tools IdeaScale Ideas Appear In Pro Tools 12? | Pro Tools - The leading website for Pro Tools users . To save anyone clicking - at best, they’ve ignored 24 of the 25 most requested features (as of the time of writing it’s all 25, with the long promised Track Freeze still vapourware). It’s rather like that bit in the Hitch Hiker’s Guide To The Galaxy about the tea machine:

When the Drink button was pressed it made an instant but highly detailed examination of the subject’s taste buds, a spectroscopic examination of the subject’s metabolism and then sent tiny experimental signals down the neural pathways to the taste centers of the subject’s brain to see what was likely to go down well. However, no one knew quite why it did this because it invariably delivered a cupful of liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea.

Of course we should expect a great deal more than shining a light on developer inadequacies if Steinberg were to implement a similar system. The core idea here - despite what Avid actually dispense - is an excellent one.

[Dmytro_ua]

+1

[Winter_Rat]

@noiseboyuk

It’s not possible to do a worse job with IdeaScale than what Avid have done with it. By entirely ignoring the end results, of course they make a mockery of the whole thing. No need to invoke conspiracies with skewing the results, theirs is a rather more blunt technique.

What it DOES do, imo, is rather nakedly expose just what an atrotious job Avid are doing, which can inform your decisions and allow posts like this to be written - How Many Of The Top 25 Pro Tools IdeaScale Ideas Appear In Pro Tools 12? | Pro Tools - The leading website for Pro Tools users . To save anyone clicking - at best, they’ve ignored 24 of the 25 most requested features.
Of course we should expect a great deal more than shining a light on developer inadequacies if Steinberg were to implement a similar system. The core idea here - despite what Avid actually dispense - is an excellent one.

Ideascale = Feature Requests and Suggestions, so I don’t see any reason to implement this stuff to the SB site. I mean there is no matter how you will be ignored - with help of this new scale or without it.
If Steinberg could post the list of the features they’re able to implement in the next version and said: “we can make 5 of these 7, vote for the most wanted and against less wanted”, it would change the game for me. But I suppose that all new features are commercial secrets and other vendors can steal the best ideas and implement them at the same time, though taking in consideration the time it takes all DAW vendors to even fix their own bugs… I wouldn’t care about espionage so much.
I would separate New Features from Workflow Enhancements. Chord Track - Feature because it adds new function. Reverse Drum Sound List - bug fixing, because I always wondered why C-2 (The lowest Note) was on the bottom in the Key Editor, but on the top in the Drum Editor!? And Double Click = new note in the MIDI Editor - Workflow Enhancement.
So I would like to see possible upcoming Workflow Enhancements published by SB and voted by users.
I don’t wanna talk about bugs - there’s nothing to discuss - bugs must be fixed!

[Niles]

@silhouette

However, the fact remains that SB have neglected the basic housekeeping and allowed a number of issues to develop a core of bad feeling amongst hard core users. (…)

(…) I am not sure that it helps to write off SB and imply that we will never be listened too and that we have to live with a situation that quite plainly can be improved.

I deliberately wrote: “It would be naive to think they actually can change.”

Mr and Mrs Steinberg stashed their house with new furniture every year, for years, but forgot about proper housekeeping let alone investing in a cleaner. It’s just a matter of time they simply can’t reach certain places anymore without breaking stuff and making an ever bigger mess. So, the cheapest and easiest solution, based on their short term vision is: Leave the dirt where it is, our visitors won’t notice it when they sit on the new couch and we’ll just repeatedly tell them how great the new couch is. However visitor keep coming less and less, because the house starts to smell funny and people even get a little sick after visiting the Mr and Mrs Steinberg.

So Mr and Mrs Steinberg decide to create a great architectural garden in front of their house to impress the neighbors and maybe even make some new friends. So instead of saving money for some serious decluttering and cleaning their home, to create a healthy environment, they spend money on creating the most beautiful garden in the street. And obviously… they will tell all the neighbors how fantastic the garden is.

[MoPro]

@noiseboyuk

@MoPro

As you point out… AVID’s implementation of Ideascale = subterfuge, and just a way to silence some of the unwanted negative reviews on the forum! And also… who’s to say that AVID doesn’t somehow manipulate the result of the voting in some way?

I mean… how many votes does it take for an “Idea or issue” to be valid?

It’s not possible to do a worse job with IdeaScale than what Avid have done with it. By entirely ignoring the end results, of course they make a mockery of the whole thing. No need to invoke conspiracies with skewing the results, theirs is a rather more blunt technique.

What it DOES do, imo, is rather nakedly expose just what an atrotious job Avid are doing, which can inform your decisions and allow posts like this to be written - How Many Of The Top 25 Pro Tools IdeaScale Ideas Appear In Pro Tools 12? | Pro Tools - The leading website for Pro Tools users . To save anyone clicking - at best, they’ve ignored 24 of the 25 most requested features (as of the time of writing it’s all 25, with the long promised Track Freeze still vapourware). It’s rather like that bit in the Hitch Hiker’s Guide To The Galaxy about the tea machine:

Of course we should expect a great deal more than shining a light on developer inadequacies if Steinberg were to implement a similar system. The core idea here - despite what Avid actually dispense - is an excellent one.

Yea… your point about AVID is well taken…

The larger picture I was trying to focus on was that “Ideascale”, at it’s worst is another way of saying “Get in line!”, and just represents another way for a company to appear to be pro active about customer issues, but just creates another barrier of noise that the customer has endure!

As Winter Rat points out:

@Winter Rat

Ideascale = Feature Requests and Suggestions, so I don’t see any reason to implement this stuff to the SB site. I mean there is no matter how you will be ignored - with help of this new scale or without it!

Steinberg already has their version of Ideascale… there is no reason for a horse of a different color when the result will be the same!

I prefer to gate the noise by looking at what’s in front of me now, and not keep funding a company’s system that asks me to vote for which punch hurts the worst!

Al

[MattiasNYC]

@noiseboyuk

What it DOES do, imo, is rather nakedly expose just what an atrotious job Avid are doing, which can inform your decisions and allow posts like this to be written - How Many Of The Top 25 Pro Tools IdeaScale Ideas Appear In Pro Tools 12? | Pro Tools - The leading website for Pro Tools users . To save anyone clicking - at best, they’ve ignored 24 of the 25 most requested features (as of the time of writing it’s all 25, with the long promised Track Freeze still vapourware). It’s rather like that bit in the Hitch Hiker’s Guide To The Galaxy about the tea machine:

I think they just got a “freeze” type functionality. Other than that I count about 15-16 features available in Nuendo at least… interesting…

[matjones]

Slo Tools… 'nuff said!

[MoPro]

@Lydiot

@noiseboyuk

What it DOES do, imo, is rather nakedly expose just what an atrotious job Avid are doing, which can inform your decisions and allow posts like this to be written - How Many Of The Top 25 Pro Tools IdeaScale Ideas Appear In Pro Tools 12? | Pro Tools - The leading website for Pro Tools users . To save anyone clicking - at best, they’ve ignored 24 of the 25 most requested features (as of the time of writing it’s all 25, with the long promised Track Freeze still vapourware). It’s rather like that bit in the Hitch Hiker’s Guide To The Galaxy about the tea machine:

I think they just got a “freeze” type functionality. Other than that I count about 15-16 features available in Nuendo at least… interesting…

I’m sorry Lydiot, but this is not my quote, but is noiseboyuk’s contribution. HTML tags a bit confused maybe.
Al

[MattiasNYC]

@MoPro

I’m sorry Lydiot, but this is not my quote, but is noiseboyuk’s contribution. HTML tags a bit confused maybe.
Al

Sorry, yes, HTML tags issue. I fixed it.

[mroekalea]

Steinberg does ones in a while some kind of research with interviews, polling or whatever. The forum has or had a section where new feature request can be posted.
What Avid has and steinberg doesn’t is a active user group who organises events, have chairmaster/spokesman (somebody who leads the whole thing), it sound like a good idea to have some user-board who can communicate direct with steinberg (and kick their butts when not behaving ).

[Zelorkq]

+1 for the original post!
Not happy with 8.5, getting more freezes than with 8.0.3, more freezes on quitting, performance is way down, especially in areas that used to work 100%! (in my case the tempo track editing runs @ 2-5 frames per second since the update, absolutely unusable. MIDI editing is a lot slower when editing many tracks at once, ASIO performance is worse (again), etc.).

It’s weird that ASIO performance in general changes in almost EVERY update (minor or major) that gets released.

Now I’m still happy using Cubase, but +1 for the original post, these are important issues we’re dealing with and I hope Steinberg is listening!

[Starsprinkler]

@noiseboyuk

1 - Publicly Viewable Bug Fix Schedule
2 - An Ideascale for users to vote up / down the most important feature requests
3 - At least one member of the development team to be on hand on the Steinberg Forum

1. Some sort of communication about bug/issue fixing schedule would be very good.

I don’t know to what extent it would be practically, it probably wouldn’t include everything for practical reasons, but to a certain degree about when at least the more important things are scheduled to be fixed, and when the patches are planned to be released (preliminary).

2. Interesting, can be very good, since it’s difficult to get an overview in the current Feature Request forum with thousands of threads…

3. Increased communication from Steinberg on the forum would be very welcome. If it comes from the developer team it should be from the manager of the team, not the developers because they should spend their time with the programming, not with the forum… Practically the development team could release information to the forum moderators, since they are following the forum anyway. We don’t want to increase the workload, just that Steinberg could be more open to communicate and inform on the forum.

[Starsprinkler]

+1 to OP.

Basically there should be a rebalance between feature development and maintenance/bug fixing.

We must realize that maintenance must take the time, cost and resources it needs. A bit less time and resources spent on shiny new features, means well needed more time and resources spent on maintenance and fixing bugs and issues.

While new features are needed to sell new updates, and there are always room and need for some new stuff to add, Cubase is probably already the most feature rich DAW in the world. What’s really needed now is to get rid of that big backlog of unfixed old and new bugs and issues.

A high quality Pro software is not only strong feature wise, but is also strong regarding stability, reliability and without huge numbers of bugs and issues.

To have that, enough resources (time and man hours) need to be plowed into it. And since resources are limited, that means a bit less resources must be spent on developing new features. And that’s the price the customers will need to pay for this. The major updates will need to be a bit less extensive. That will free up some resources well needed for adding to the maintenance part of the work.

Also, there could be a focus for next version on the less resource demanding feature requests, smaller things like workflow enhancements asked for, and refine what’s already there, rather than many big new additions. Maybe unlock some things from Nuendo (e.g. AAF and Edit Mode)

It would be good if next release was delayed for some months to catch up with maintenance, but most likely the owner Yamaha is requiring the annual releases for financial reasons. Yes, there’s a business reality.

So ok, just rebalancing a bit to transfer some resources into maintenance, with the price of making the major updates a bit less extensive, would improve the situation. Fix as many bugs and issues in 8.5 as reasonably possible, with the cost of having version 9 a bit slimmer, and then do the same and clean out the rest of them in the cycle of version 9.

I do not think there is a reason to worry about that this would mean decreased sales. The latest major updates have been really major, and I use to wonder: how the heck did the programmers manage to put all that in? They must have very strong coffee at the Steinberg office!

Feature wise Cubase is already incredibly impressive. So a good update doesn’t need to be massive feature wise, just adequate. But that bug list needs to be polished off to have Cubase really strong. And that would, in the end, actually increase sales.

So make it strong. Polish it. Make it shine. Make it Pro.

All best,

[snplmn]

As much as people don’t want to believe it this whole thing is almost democratic. There have been hundreds of these threads started over all the years and all the different forums, and the only ones that get noticed are the ones where the community bands together (somewhat) and gets noticed. This is a very popular and very highly rated thread so it is likely to stay at the top with all those nice looking stars under it, so a new users or prospective customer comes in to see what he/she’s getting into, sees this topic, gets scared and Steinberg loses a sale. That’s why it’s getting a positive response from Steinberg.

I’m not saying Steinberg doesn’t care about fixings bugs, I’m convinced it’'s a very high priority, as is creating a top quality piece of software (which Cubase is), but when many of the issues that people have are largely ignored by the community as a whole, or the users (that’s us ) spend a lot of time arguing amongst themselves (which happens), the developer may not have the clearest picture of what’s a truly big important workflow issue vs what’s just a bunch of nitpicky complaining.

Also I’m very curious as to how many (if any) of these bugs are permanent. I mean there’s no telling how old some of the code in Cubase is, and I very much doubt that it’s been rewritten from the ground up any time recently. Some problems might just be there due to limitations of older features that are being carried over. A full scale rebuild of such a massive piece of software might not be financially possible via upgrade pricing. Maybe someday Steinberg will hold a poll to ask users if they’re willing to pay full price for a completely brand new Cubase built 100% to modern spec. Or they could just purchase C_ockos (you can’t say c * c k on this forum… so great job C_ockos for having the stupidest company name) and make them design a new Cubase that takes up 200mb on disk and is blazing fast. (consider that a full Reaper install is less than 60mb and it’s probably one of the fastest bits of software you’ll ever use)

Anyway, Steinberg is a business and Cubase is a very mature, very massive software package. It’s never going to compete with newer DAWs in terms of performance and footprint because it has 25+ years of features built in. Don’t get me wrong I would love a Cubase version that ran efficiently, had a properly working GUI, loaded quickly and had features that worked as advertised, but even as it is now I still wouldn’t use any other DAW if given the choice. Workflow is king, and no other DAW can touch Cubase in that department (I say that knowing full well it’s because I am used to it and I can easily get this used to another DAW within a few weeks of daily use…).

[Patepro]

As a reasponsible software manager i think that the discussed facts are a matter of how the maintenance model is build by steinberg. We get minor patches for free and dont pay for these patches - bug fixes. But the company has to earn money in case to pay their stuff. For that reason they are forced to sell bigger patches which they enrich with a bit functionality.
Another way would be a software maintenance which finances the bug fixing and the support. So the question is: would you pay a maintenace fee i.e. 50 bugs the year for software maintenance. Then only functional enhancements would be offered as new versions.

[Puma0382]

@Kotsamanidis

Anyway, Steinberg is a business and Cubase is a very mature, very massive software package. It’s never going to compete with newer DAWs in terms of performance and footprint because it has 25+ years of features built in. Don’t get me wrong I would love a Cubase version that ran efficiently, had a properly working GUI, loaded quickly and had features that worked as advertised, but even as it is now I still wouldn’t use any other DAW if given the choice. Workflow is king, and no other DAW can touch Cubase in that department (I say that knowing full well it’s because I am used to it and I can easily get this used to another DAW within a few weeks of daily use…).

Agreed. Though, I was thinking they could take all the excellent work they’ve done with Sequel (all clean, fresh code) and put a programme in place to build that out… Maybe sandbox support for VST2.x plugs/VI’s; add good, clean video handling capability, add the notation stuff, increase automation features, external hardware, device control, and on and on…

A lot of what is there is great and clean and light already (smart tool editing, window handling, efficiency of workflow, etc…)

[Steinberg_info]

Hello all,

Bellow you can find the detailed reply that we promised:

Open letter to our customers

Best regards,
GN

[Winter_Rat]

@Patepro

So the question is: would you pay a maintenace fee i.e. 50 bugs the year for software maintenance. Then only functional enhancements would be offered as new versions.

The answer is NO. Walking down this road vendors will intentionally leave bugs in the software to get extra money for the same cookie.