Bass clef notation for horn (old notation)

The issue: because the transposition is different between treble and bass clefs in horn writing up to the early 20th Century, I’ve been trying, so far unsuccessfully to get these examples to look visually correct, and to play at the correct pitch. The “sounds 8va bass clef part” instrument plays back two octaves too high, and it’s further complicated when copy/pasting into other parts. My solution would be to use 8va lines over the bass clef passage (as in the attached “8va lines”), but then hide them (to give the look in the attached “no-lines”), which would give both a visual and audio solution (and was my workaround elsewhere), but I can’t see (and would appreciate a nudge in the right direction if I’ve missed it) that it’s currently possible to hide 8va lines. Any thoughts, or has someone come up with a different workaround? I realise that it’s an arcane notation practice, but nevertheless a valid one.
Rheingold no lines.png
Rheingold 8va lines.png

I think you should be able to work around the playback being out by two octaves by applying a transposition in the expression map. Assuming you’re using the default HSO sounds, you can edit the ‘HSO Horn Solo’ expression map to transpose by two octaves.

Daniel, the problem is:
“In many 19th century scores the horn part, which was written in bass clef for low notes, was written a fourth lower than it sounded (on F Horn). This old style of notation – which was known as “high bass clef” – is no longer usual today.”
But this was only usual for the bass clef and parts usually had clef changes. Treble clef is and was always sounding a fifth lower for F Horn. So it is not helpful, to change the transposition for the whole instrument in this case. I hope, that there will be a possibility to change the transposition according to the clef, when there will be a proper way to edit instruments in Dorico.

Providing an editor for instruments won’t magically also make it possible to change the octave transposition of a clef, since clefs do not produce octave transpositions in Dorico. I’m not sure what the best way to address that requirement will be.

If one were to use different voices for the horn when in treble or bass clef, one could assign the voices to different (HALion) slots (MIDI channels) and apply the transposing expression map only to the voice used for bass clef.

Might it be then, that the simplest solution would be to have the possibility to hide the 8va line (as a check-box in the properties panel in Engrave mode), and do it that way?

That’s not really a very Dorico-y way of doing things. We need to think about this whole problem some more.

Is this what you need?
Horn old Style Bass (522 KB)

Hello Craig,
Thanks for your post; I didn’t have NotePerformer at that time, so couldn’t hear it, but since then, I’ve bought it. That’s exactly what I need to hear; if it’s not too time consuming to explain, how on earth do I do that?
Best wishes,

In the meantime we’ve been thinking about this problem some more and we anticipate that we will make it possible to specify an octave shift (up to three octaves in either direction) for a clef change, which will affect the clef appearance either in concert pitch or transposed pitch, analogous to the existing property that allows you to specify whether a given clef change should appear in concert or transposed pitch. We think this should make it possible to achieve any of the various conventions used for instruments like horn and bass clarinet.

This, right now, requires a hack that Steinberg does not recommend. It creates a transposing clef. If you can, use the file I posted as a template and import your music into it. You can then copy/paste the transposing clef to any place you need it.

…and an elegant and simple solution appears in v.3.5. Thanks Daniel and the team, this is brilliant! Remembering our conversation in Helsinki, thanks for listening and working it out!