BBC SO Template for Vienna Ensemble Pro?

Is there a standard template for BBC SO Pro / VEPRO in the works?

H

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https://blog.dorico.com/2020/07/spitfire-bbc-symphony-orchestra-templates/

Henrik hello,
Very good idea! :slight_smile: Would be nice if there is a VE Pro template for BBC SO Pro which works fine
with Dorico Pro. Or at least detailed info on how to deal with Divisi, Double, Triple and Quadruple Stops/Chords when we are using VE Pro as host for the BBC SO Pro. Or video tutorial on how to create standard Double and Triple Orchestra with BBC SO inside VE Pro for using it with Dorico Pro. :slight_smile:
Thank to @John_at_Steinberg in advance, if he decides to make some template, or tutorial! :slight_smile:

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

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I have now installed BBC CO (SSD) with VEP 7 server and Mir24 on one computer (i5 / 32GB) and Dorico on a second computer (i7 / 16GB): First experiences: great - runs fine and without problems. And the same of course in Cubase!
Such a template can be easily and quickly adapted - if e.g. Ensembles or solos are needed.
If I can help - I’m happy.
greeting
Bertram

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 01|282x500 !

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 02|563x500 !

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 03|434x452 !

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 04|451x500 !

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 05|688x499 !

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 06|358x499 !

BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 07|634x500

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BBCSO mit VEP Server in DORICO 09|690x449 !

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Thanks, Bertram, for sharing some pictures.
So, You only load òne VST instrument; namely the VEPro (server), and then connect from there? And, if you want to connect more VEPro Events, you just add another VST in Dorico?

I have been using VEPro with Sibelius for years, so I am rather familiar with it, but not within Dorico;-)

Cheers,

Henrik

Of course you can load VEP instances as many you want or as needed. Once the Dorico project file is saved, you dont have to connect them any more.
But I use only one instance - better performance - but the main reason is: I use the mixer in VEP with the fantastic MIR - I only use one stereo output channel back to Dorico.
I preserved space in th Dorico endpointconfiguration file for all the instruments - and the same in the VEP channel-groups, so I dont need to load all the patches. I also load other instruments in the server (piano or sax from other libs and put them on the MIR stage. Its very handly and easy to make it just for a current project. You can see it in my pictures (endpointcofiguration)

SORY MY ENGLICH - I’m from North-Germany.
Greeting
Bertram

Thanks. I will set this up very soon, and will surely ask you more questions then!

Henrik

@_derBertram hello,
Thank you very much for sharing your work and experience with all of us! :slight_smile:
I would give a small suggestion in order to improve your VE Pro template, and to make it more clear.
You can split your project into Sections / VE Pro instances within a single Server (Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion, Strings), just like in the video below about VE Pro and Iconica. This would make any future changes far more easier and clear. :slight_smile:

I really hope that @John_at_Steinberg will join this conversation and will help us to create properly working BBC SO Pro + VE Pro Templates, especially about dealing with Divisi and Double, Triple, Quadruple Stops/Chords, because this is the most delicate point. Probably for the Stops/Chords some special symbol, or short expression text could be created (which can be then hidden) in order to trigger the needed patches?! But would be better if it’s officially created in the BBC SO Templates available on Dorico’s blog.
It is obvious that Spitfire Audio sampled Triple Orchestra for the BBC SO library. But unfortunately they didn’t provide three flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons, trumpets, trombones as separate solo instruments, nor the four horns. In a DAW those “a3” and “a4” patches are useful in order to save space and they are ok for playing chords in a single Instrument Track, but in Dorico we need them more as separate instruments. We can use the Condensing feature to combine them.
There are small timbral differences from flute to flute; from clarinet to clarinet; from trumpet to trumpet; from horn to horn… and of course the major difference comes from how the different musicians play on the instruments. This will surely will bring even more life and realism to the BBC SO Pro. Probably the Dorico team could discuss this with the guys at Spitfire Audio?! :slight_smile:
We’ll be very thankful to him if he makes the thing more clear, probably with some short video tutorial on this topic. :slight_smile: The rest is easy.

Best wishes,
Thurisaz :slight_smile:

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With BBCSO there are individual instruments in the Core and Pro versions, but not in the Discover orchestra, which mainly has e.g. ‘a3’ or ‘a4’ instruments.

I created the VEPro template for Iconica because if you use Iconica directly in with Dorico it will vastly increase the Dorico file size (Iconica needs to save a lot of data). Using VEPro keeps this separate. I suppose a BBCSO template could also be created, but there are also many other libraries that aren’t mapped at all. Are there lots of people who need this - and has @_derBertram already started?

Also, with the Iconica VEPro mapping I created multiple instances (one for each family) because then it’s easy to find instruments later, and I then mapped everything on to individual channels so that you can control them in the Dorico mixer.

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@John_at_Steinberg hello,
Thank you very much for the reply! :slight_smile:
Well, probably after this 1 month of reduced price of BBCSO Core and Pro many people will be interested in templates for VE Pro. As you know VE Pro allows switching the Projects, or Flows without waiting for the instruments unload and load again. That’s the main reason for us asking about VE Pro template only for BBC SO Pro and Core. Discover is very small and loads very fast.
By the way, if you don’t have enough time to create complete VE Pro template, we could do it ourselves. We need your assistance for the trickiest part, like Divisi, Double, Triple and Quadruple Stops. You could just cover this in a video tutorial.
You already did the biggest amount of work by creating the Expression Maps and the Playback Template. Big Thank you for that! :slight_smile:

Thank you in advance! :slight_smile:

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

I’ll be completely honest, I’d need more details about what you mean about the double / triple etc stops, but glad to help.

John,
Double, triple and quadruple stops are chords played on violin, viola, cello or contrabass by single player. They are not Divisi! :slight_smile:
Here is an example for triple stops on violin:


The double stops can be performed easily in legato, some of the triple stops, too. The biggest problem here is that, the legato articulation in BBC SO is monophonic, here probably we may need to use the Sustain patch which is polyphonic. This makes me think that additional Expression Map entries should be created with some expression text and symbol (for long passages and singular chords) in order to switch from the monophonic samples, to polyphonic.
I hope you may find these details helpful! :slight_smile:

Best regards,
Thurisaz

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Sorry (tired), I presumed that was the technique but I didn’t think the default technique was legato (monophonic), so those techniques should play back as chords using the Sustain patch (unless they have slurs)?
I haven’t tried it though.
Let me know if I’m missing something.

John, no worries, it’s already late at night. :wink:
You are correct! :slight_smile:
The transition from one chord to another could be slurred (valid mainly for double stops, and triple stops). If the intervals are positioned on up to 3 adjacent strings slurs are possible. The Quadruple stops sound a bit arpeggiated, due to the curve between the first and forth strings of the stringed instruments, so, legato transition is theoretically impossible.

UPDATE: About the slurred chords. Probably some collaboration between the Dorico team, and the guys at Spitfire Audio (and other companies) could bring some solution in order to have polyphonic legato playback?! :slight_smile:

Best wishes,
Thurisaz :slight_smile:

As I have already posted above (with pictures), after initial attempts I dont use anymore a multi-instance solution and only use a single instance. For clarity, I use colored group tracks with MIR inserts in the VEP mixer and placeholders in the VEP channel list and accordingly in the Dorico enp point configuration. The main reason for this, however, is that I use the mixer in VEP with the wonderful MIR room (stage simulation) and possibly only audio output tracks in the Dorico / Cubase mixer. (inside the VEP server each instance has its own mixer / MIR stage)

Till now in my experience, this single instance approach is the best, most flexible and creative-friendly approach in order to get involved with the existing computer equipment and with a new, unknown project.

And yes - it has been startet and runs as expected on two computers. I don’t see the problems with the Divisi … because, as I said, my solution with placeholder facilitates flexible assignment and monophonic voices can simply be played (recorded) twice or more times. The individual voices can be assigned to different output ports / channels in Dorico.

greetings
Bertram

Just skimmed the topic so don’t know what’s been answered or not, but I use BBCSO Pro with Ensemble Pro. It was trivially easy to set up, I just took Steinbergs default BBCSO template and switched out a handful of VEP instances instead. I think the only trick is you need to make sure the key switches are the same, with the Spitfire player it’s easy to get a patch set up without any keyswitch. What I did is take the one in the Steinberg BBCSO template, save them all as presets, then load those presets into my VEP patches.

Anyhow let me know if there’s any other questions.

Spitfire have decided not to try and programme legato chords with the BBC orchestras so anything anyone else does is simply a workaround. Same with CSS. VSL, on the other hand do allow legato chords but they most certainly won’t have been sampled the combinations (unless anyone knows to the contrary) but rather must be using some form of crossfade. Spitfire’s solution is to use the “long” patch which is what I do, otherwise I imagine that patch blending within the same channel and/or some sort of slurring might be a way forward for those who wish to experiment. But I would hardly expect John to undertake this kind of thing!

John’s default technique is indeed “long” but I’ve changed this to " legato" with an extra p.t for chords with the strings at any rate for various reasons – it’s an area that still requires experimentation.

As for VEP, I’m going to give it a serious try next time an offer comes around – didn’t have time with the recent sale so I’ll need to leave this part of the discussion to others in the meantime.

I actually purchased VEPro just today after trying out the demo version. It works really well with dorico! Now editing, opening and saving dorico files is as fast as with noteperformer. Only thing I regret is that I didn’t purchase it earlier :slight_smile:

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Trying to reassign John´s Iconica-template to work with my VEPro-instances of BBC SO, but I can´t find the BBC-expression maps anymore. Will they only load if I choose the BBC SO-playback template?
Also, when choosing the BBC-playback template, Dorico loads all the internal BBC VSTs, and I can´t get rid of them.

  1. You’ll find them on the Spitfire Website , somewhere at BBCSO - templates I remember. They will be saved with the blaybackconfig. inside the endpointconf., if you save them - and also of course in your saved project, if it has used them.
  2. Put them on Dorico’s Programm-Settings - playback - vstplugins - blacklist
    Greetings