Beaming 3/4 lik3 6/8

Is there a way to force a measure of 3/4 to beam three eighths together so that it looks like 6/8? This is rather common and I would think it is easy to do…I can’t find it though.

If it is more than one bar and more than two instruments, you should consider using a new time signature spelled [1.5+1.5]/4 in the Shift M popover (you can hide it in the properties).
Otherwise, force duration (o) is the way to go.

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That does not work. It isn’t a forced duration…it is a beaming group. I used one of your suggestions on a different post (Thank you!) and just mapped a shortcut to “beam together”. It works but it means changing EVERY occurrence of this individually. Would be great to just be able to beam specific bars a certain way.

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Yes, sorry, not in front of Dorico… And I saw the FB post. Using 6/8 (hidden) is the way to go, it seems :wink:
(I thought about force duration to get the dotted quarters, obviously. But you are right that manually beaming is the way with shorter rhythmic values!)

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(emphasis mine) I’m actually curious to see any (classic?) scores that do this; at least it’s not common in my experience. While I’m all for maximal flexibility in terms of engraving and notation, I can understand this not being given as a preset option; groups of threes in 3/4 intrinsically cross the beat. (I assume that there’s no default option for groups of two in 6/8 for the same reason.) This seems like the perfect kind of problem to create a custom script for, but I know nothing about scripting in Dorico.

I suppose that an occasional episode in a 3/4 composition might call for this beaming, but then the proper course of action depends on how long this lasts. For just a measure or two, manual regrouping shouldn’t be too painful. Otherwise, I second @MarcLarcher in adding the 6/8 time signature. Not only can you hide it so that the time signature remains 3/4 nominally, you can even keep it to just one staff if, for example, the groups of three occur in only one instrument. (Use Alt/Option+Enter after entering 6/8 in the popover; you can repeat this for other staves as needed.)

I agree.

Notating dotted crotchet/quarter followed by 3 beamed quavers/eighths in ¾ time signature is extremely common in classical scores like Haydn. Random example from the ‘Lark’ quartet:

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[3]/4 seems to handle this fine.

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Okay, I take that back. It appears I misunderstood what OP was asking for; I thought he was referring to a syncopated pattern of two groups of three in the same measure. I definitely agree that the three eighth notes in the Haydn example should be able to be grouped by default - indeed, any group of consecutive eighth notes as long as groups of two do not take priority.

Strangely, the existing Notation options look like they should already take care of this, but evidently they do not. I created a test file in 3/4 time where I tried to replicate the rhythm pattern in question. Even though Eighth notes (quavers) in quarter note (crotchet) denominator time signatures is set to Allow to cross beats and Beaming eighth notes (quavers) together in quarter note (crotchet) denominator time signatures is set to Beam together a group of any size - indeed, these are my notation defaults - the threes are not beamed when followed by a dotted quarter note.

However, the solution proposed by @asherber does seem to be a nice hack! It does get me to wonder what the brackets are changing here - and of course the desired beaming would still be nice to see in the standard 3/4 time signature.

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Or, in a more extreme (and rarer!) way, in this piano romance by Clara Schumann :blush:

It does get me to wonder what the brackets are changing here - and of course the desired beaming would still be nice to see in the standard 3/4 time signature.

Looks like Dorico’s default interpretation of 3/4 is [1+1+1]/4 - just as the default interpretation of 4/4 is [1+1+1+1]/4. So, [3]/4 creates a single 3 beat long beam division, filling the bar.

Hence, with [3]/4 it’s not just a group of 3 eighth-notes that is beamed - all groups of eighth-notes within the measure are (subject to the beam grouping settings in Notation options, which can easily confuse matters - for example, the default settings will make 4/4 look like [2+2]/4 in many cases, due to the “half bar” options). From what I can tell at a glance, the default interpretations of common quarter note denominator time signatures is:

2/4 = [1+1]/4
3/4 = [1+1+1]/4
4/4 = [1+1+1+1]/4
5/4 = [3+2]/4
6/4 = [3+3]/4
7/4 = [4+3]/4

Incidentally, Elaine Gould touches upon this exact example (and many of the points in this thread) in Behind Bars:

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As Gould says, this appears frequently in Classical and Romantic music, even though a 6/8 rhythm is not intended. Which begs the question – then why do it? :thinking:

Indeed. Why is Clara Schumann’s Romance notated in ¾ when it’s clearly 6/8?

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I can only assume because Classical and Romantic composers, like Haydn in the aforementioned example, intended for any group of quavers in 3/4 to be beamed together - exactly what the OP seems to be asking for.

And for me, Gould’s own quote about context undercuts her position about groups of three - so long as the broader context does not suggest syncopation, shouldn’t this notation still be permitted? * The more I think about it, the more I feel like this should be a notation option for future versions of Dorico (standalone groups of three quavers at the beginning or end of a 3/4 measure - standalone, of course, so that we are not habitually grouping threes when twos or sixes are possible). Until then, the [3]/4 hack will have to do - in fact, I propose it to @sguerra1118 as the solution.

(*) I see this as an analogue of what @Jither noted regarding 4/4 being made to look like [2+2]/4 in the Notation Options already available. The Schumann example doesn’t count, at least in the left hand; I still don’t see a way to beam semiquavers in sixes by default when in 3/4.

Although that might be the case, it also allows for (and defaults to) a 1/2-rest, which is the incorrect notation in 3/4.

(This is where Discourse could really use a “dislike” reaction!)

It seems to me that you have several tools at your disposal that you can use together (manual beaming, hidden time sigs, forced duration), but no one-size-fits-all approach.

I agree with @Serioso that it seems like the available notation options should allow this (but they don’t), and it would be nice if Dorico supported this style out of the box.

You’ll find the answer on page 2 of this romance (bars 15 and following).

Clara is incredibly clever than… Dorico. :shushing_face:

Oh…I hadn’t noticed that! So [3]/4 is not the cure-all I thought it was - the half-rest is definitely not correct in any version of 3/4. So, for now, it’s a balancing act - we have to weigh the most efficient way to get the desired beaming (re-beam manually, hidden 6/8, or hidden [3]/4) without introducing unexpected consequences.

This makes the proposed Notation Option (allow beaming a standalone group of three quavers at the beginning or end) all the more important for future versions.

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Indeed! I very much enjoy playing her solo piano music and her Lieder in concerts.

Gould is not considering that a lot of Spanish and Latin American music, for instance, use a lot of hemiolas where the rhythms 3/4 and 6/8 are not only constantly interchanged but applied simultaneously

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