Can you explain me: vertical text and object to a note

I have several elements positioned relative to the first note and which I move vertically in engrave to obtain what I want…
Bbut it often happens that if I make a change remove or add a text element also positioned in relation to the 1st note, this completely changes the vertical positioning data: is there anything I can do to avoid this without needing to make text frames?
The “Y” values of offset are the same but on screen it’s on a different vertical place? I don’t understand ??!!
Here is an example of my problem.
vertical texte
Y value of offset:
After same value:
vertical after

Dorico sets offsets relative to where the item goes by default, rather than exact “GPS” co-ordinates.

If the surrounding notations change (e.g. you add another item, or remove an item, or change an item so that it’s taller etc) then the base position will be different, and therefore the offset is now relative to a different position.

You can minimise this by using properties to position items as closely as possible to their intended position first and foremost: for text items, this might include setting their position/placement to be Above/Below the staff as required, rather than simply dragging them up/down – so that Dorico knows where it should be accounting for them when calculating where items go.

Thank you for these explanations, I understand now…which also means that I understand that for my educational projects with several lines, a lot of text, this is not possible.
You have to use text frames, but too bad, you can’t duplicate them, so you always have to recreate them, align them, resize them…especially since selecting them to move them is often complicated and requires a lot of clicks (or I didn’t understand)…so much so that I will continue to export to PDF and use software like affinity to go quickly
Thanks again

There are ways of working around this, such as making sure text items have the correct staff-relative placement first, and then disabling text collision avoidance, so that text items no longer factor in other items for their positioning.

Also not quite true :slight_smile:

(If in doubt, ask whether something is possible!)

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(google traduction)
Sorry for taking up your time and maybe annoying you?
You are certainly right, I think I don’t know Drorico enough and don’t work enough with the workarounds to get results for the kind of use of creating educational sheets for my students (who mostly only have Dorico 3.5).
It’s difficult for me to give you Dorico files because they are all different, but in fact I always encounter the same problems!
So here for example is a condensed nickname that I would like to make easily: I would like with the same page to have several different versions (with the answers to the numbers, without the answers to the numbers, the student writes “in C:” when seeing the numbers, etc… have all the possibilities quickly! But I think that it is not possible without exporting to pdf and using affinity Designer or taking a lot of time in Dorico because:

  • if I duplicate the flow teacher with answers, all layouts and alignments are lost
  • if I want to put the texts of my example “in C:, in Bb:” in frame text I cannot indent the frame texts unless I have a zero margin in the page setup, but then the staves are glued to the left
  • I cannot duplicate the frame texts on the same page.
  • The numbers are in “lyrics” mode if I “delete” the line of lyric 1, it shifts everything vertically…so you have to put them in alpha 0 etc…

In fact and in summary, it would be really good to be able to duplicate the flows with all the layouts, but I think that that doesn’t interest many people given that we are already at version 5.1 so that’s why It seems to me that when using Dorico, I have to export to PDF and do my teaching sheets elsewhere.

Thanks again

Lyric vertical offsets don’t seem to be retained when duplicating flows, you’re right, but as long as you have Dorico Pro, you can adjust the project defaults for where lyrics are positioned: if you want them to be further below the staff, then go to Engraving Options > Lyrics > Vertical Position and increase the minimum distance between lyrics and the staff. That way, you don’t have to move lyrics down manually in every flow.

Other graphical offsets, like for text items, should be retained when duplicating flows.

You can duplicate text frames onto the same page: please see the instructions for “copying frames” I posted earlier for more information.

To keep an empty line of lyrics in place, you could also enter a single non-breaking space instead of text which you then change the colour of (on Mac, you enter a non-breaking space by pressing Shift-Opt-Space). You can still navigate back to that invisible lyric line by opening the lyrics popover for a line above/below and pressing up/down (e.g. if you later wanted to add numbers back into an empty line).

Provided there is at least one syllable in a lyric line in each system, its spacing will be retained.

I’m not completely sure what other types of offsets you want to retain, could you expand? Not just so the team are clear about what it is you’re asking, but also in case there is actually a better, more robust way of achieving the same result without the need for overrides in the first place.

I would simply save the file under a new name and edit the new file, either changing lyrics or using Lock Duration to change notes, whichever you need to do.

thank you Lillie, I learned a lot

I tested better: you are right: copy in place, but…but a hell of a battle afterwards
copy text frame

my results when duplicate flow :

Certainly with your explanations we can do better, but if you have to do it every time…2-3 times a day…and then you have to copy the frames…
I think it’s not my day

Is it more reliable if you move the text frame using the key command, rather than dragging with the mouse? Try selecting the edge (not any of the handles), then pressing Ctrl/Cmd-Alt/Opt-Right arrow a few times.

Edit: I see what you mean, if you re-select the edge after pasting. It’s more reliable if you select the frame edge, not any of the individual handles, before pasting: because then you can use the key commands to move the frame immediately after pasting, without selecting the frame again.

OK there are few things going on here, some of which I won’t be able to answer for certain without an example project file.

However, here are a few suggestions that might help reduce the number of per-flow manual changes you need to make, although because this is based on a picture where you have put pictures into a text document, some might not be relevant if discrepancies are more due to image size differences rather than anything happening in Dorico:

  • Staff size: if you change this by right-clicking staves, that only affects the selected staves in that flow. Instead, you can change the default size of all staves in the layout, which affects all staves. If you set that to the size you use most often, you will reduce the number of overrides that you need to make.

  • Lyric positions: vertical lyric offsets aren’t retained when you duplicate flows. Try changing minimum gaps in Engraving Options > Lyrics, including the gap between lyrics and the staff, and between lyric lines. If you can get those values producing automatic results you like, then no manual overrides are necessary, and all flows will follow the same exact values.

  • Flow headings: if that floating number “2” in the duplicated flow screenshot is appearing in Dorico and you don’t want it, make sure you’ve hidden flow headings for the whole layout. Deleting the “1. Flow 1” text frame on the first page won’t prevent Dorico adding it back for subsequent flows, because deleting it on one page is a local page override on that page only.

  • Gaps between staves/systems within the same flow: see Per-layout vertical spacing options

Thanks for all and will close this post with this:

I don’t want to hurt anyone (my knowledge of English is not advanced enough to know exactly the weight of the words I use) It’s funny all the same in this forum (but don’t want to hurt anyone), everyone quickly feels attacked and takes a position to defend what exists using a ton of workaround. Everything I showed in this post seemed normal enough to take into consideration for the program to improve… no?

In all the workarounds still offered there is still a lot of manipulation to be done using the left brain
So yes the simplest solutions remain either Derek’s

or the one I’ve been using all the time exporting to PDF and using affinity or something else to do it.

Yes it works: besides the programs that I know work the same way with the arrow keys. On the other hand, all the programs that I use also have this convention: with the mouse by clicking and holding the mouse button pressed on an element copied or not, it can be moved and only the element above is selected. To also select those below you have to use markee selection with the mouse… it would be nice if Dorico did the same thing, which has nevertheless become intuitiv… No?

Another thing for people who have a lot of educational scores, they use a lot of horizontal lines (and often the same length)…so my way of working would like to be quite intuitive as I do in other programs (adobe suite, affinity suite, etc…) by copy and paste inplace or not then move… a bit like my old music writing program from 2012 (you can even draw a line anywhere on the page, ie where you release the mouse button):


The copy and paste function for lines does not work for me?! and I still find it very long with Dorico to always open the bottom pane then choose the placement above or below, close the bottom pane, and always switch between write and engrave then write again etc… So even if we can still do everything with this program and everyone supports it very strongly in this forum, we could also sometimes say that it would be to be able to do things faster and more in a way dictated by the right brain… No?
So perhaps something from this post in a next update??
Best regards

I’m sorry if you feel that way; I hope it wasn’t my responses that contributed to that, I only wanted to help you achieve your desired end-result more quickly and efficiently using the options already available to you.

Your feedback is useful, and I would always encourage anyone to share their thoughts: for instance, your point about copied frames both moving if you re-select them because they overlay exactly (I agree that would be nice if the top-most frame only was selected), and about copying lines (there are likely technical reasons for that not working at the moment, but I agree that would be welcome).

The points I was making about avoiding manually dragging items, and instead adjusting Dorico’s default settings so that everything is automatically spaced as you would want them to be, is a different style of working than you demonstrate in your gif, but perhaps long-term a more efficient one? Especially if it reduces the amount of mode-switching you then need to do.

For changing the placement of items, the vast majority respond to the key command F (for “flip”), meaning you don’t need to open the Properties panel for them at all.

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No, not at all and I always enjoy reading your comments and learning from you.
for example

I always use it for stems but didn’t know that it worked with a lot of things!
[google traduction]:

I know that Dorico is based a lot on key commands, but this has limits for people like me who use a lot of programs which with the same key command do different things, therefore difficult to memorize and above all a lot of information which can interact.
So there are limits to that, and when there is something that we don’t know how to do in software, the human being uses his right brain to try to find things by referring to what he knows from another program for example.
Situation 1:
I use Dorico in English but with a Swiss French keyboard : the manual en or fr say:
Hide/Show the left zone in any of the following ways:
Press Ctrl/Cmd-7.
Masquez ou affichez la zone gauche en procédant de l’une des manières suivantes :
Appuyez sur Ctrl/Cmd-È.

Bingo! I must test the two things so I introduce in my brain a confusion, so the memory of the key command will be affected…and the next time I must hide or show the zone, the right brain will then take over, using the mouse.

I like it when what is practiced by a majority of programs is also practiced with my favorite notation program DORICO .
Need an example:
Lot of program use now the combinaison Ctrl + Alt with mousewheel to zoom in and out from the pointer and not the page (which is sometimes another combination) . Could be great that Dorico do zoom taking into account the position of the cursor and not the global page.

As requested, I will find and post an educational score that I would like to be able to create in Dorico quickly during a lesson for example… and the team will take it into account or not, for a future update

I know that the team do the max , and I would be the first to pay more for updates to hire more programmers

The manuals automatically show the key commands that correspond to that language, based on the layout of that language’s keyboard.

If you have a French keyboard and therefore use French key commands in Dorico, the French instructions are the ones you should be looking at. Bingo, one less confusion.

Perhaps we could look into how feasible it would be to allow you to change the key command language used in the documentation (e.g. so you could read the English documentation, but have it show you French key commands). It might be too complicated technically, though.

And finally, just once again: I appreciate it’s a different approach to the very manual methods you’re used to, but if you try to use Dorico with a “settings-first” mindset, you won’t need to override things nearly as much, and therefore any differences in key commands there are to other applications you use regularly won’t matter so much. Your feedback and requests about areas of functionality discussed in this thread still stand, of course.


;-): not so easy there are several french keyboard and in my country (switzerland) it’s a qwertzu keyboard not a azerty

It would be great if it wasn’t global, but could be adjusted individually (like rythmic cue).
I sometimes hide the notes (scale=1) so that the students write them on the staff, so if on the same page there is Ex01: write the name of the notes and Ex02: draw the notes on the staff, it does not go well…exemple
Best regards

Note that there are now properties that allow to hide stems and noteheads, so the scale workaround is no longer needed.
If you need some help about keyboard shortcuts, please write me in PM, I have some experience with the French keyboard (not swiss one), I could lend a hand on building up an optimized setup :person_shrugging:

Hello Marc,
I was just going to write to you to find out where the hide invisible shortcut key is located.
So I do Alt+253 (not very practical because four keys) but I think you are doing something else, or you have assigned another shortcut: I might as well use the same one as you!
And also why this shortcut is not “toggle” (show/hide) I must come back to write than back to engrave to show again

It can be adjusted individually; it’s just quicker and easier to set the global settings to what you want in most cases, therefore reducing the amount of individual adjustment required.

For lyrics, their manual vertical offsets aren’t retained if you duplicate the flow (as discussed earlier, and as is therefore already up for consideration).

If you mean the “Dessiner…” text moving out of place, then that’s one of the benefits of disabling text collision avoidance (either for individual text items, or globally for all text items in Engraving Options) – when disabled, text items no longer factor in other items when determining their placement. Therefore, the existence, size, height etc of everything else won’t affect the text.

The “Hide Invisibles” key command is active for as long as you hold the key down. You shouldn’t need to switch modes to use it: in either Write mode or Engrave mode, it temporarily hides all signposts, frame edges etc until you release the key.

Hi Lillie,
thanks for your patience!

Ok I increase the minimum distance in Engrave optionbut can’t achieve the individual disatance??
do you mean the Y offset ? No effect here

No I mean when the exercise is printed on paper and the student write draw the notes on staaf with a pencil

Not here but as the shortcut in french = small 2 is not present in swiss french keyboard expect in doing ALT+253…I create another shortcut: Esc,2
(almost the same analogy for my brain with the french manual who use the smal 2)works but hide but there is no your until function. I use Esc,2 because all other shortcuts I want to create are already used…will try with another combination but will wait for Marc answer to have a pseudo standard in this forum
Best regards

Lyric offsets are “a bit different”, they don’t use properties – sorry if my last comment was misleading. I was referring to when you move lyrics vertically as described here. The exact values aren’t displayed anywhere, unless I’m forgetting something.

Therefore, as things work in Dorico at the moment, manual lyric overrides aren’t easy to copy between flows (hence my encouragement for you to use Engraving Options for lyrics as much as possible, or at least to reduce the amount of manual overrides that are required).

Alternatively, if you use text items, they would also allow you to add accidental glyphs more easily.

It’s not then clear to me what the issue is in Dorico.

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A example why I want the possibility to adjust vertically elements not as global in Dorico. I use Lyric to write number from my habits since sibelius and what can perhaps be avoided after a potential need for alignment this time horizontal
Look at the 3 : could be great to have the possibility go down the number line before to give to the student

But you gave me the solution:

But the mistake is on my side, I think I’m too methodical and like to look for things that do the same thing in the same place. If I had more time I would learn better Dorico.
Really thanks again