Cellos and Basses in Beethoven Symphony 7, First Movement

I’m hoping someone can enlighten me how to correctly interpret the cello/bass staff notation In Beethoven’s 7th Symphony, first movement (poco sotenuto).

I’m used to the practice of doublebasses sounding an octave below notated, but I’m also used to a separate doublebass staff from the cellos. However, the score I am working from (and this doubtless corrresponds to Beethoven’s original) combines basses with the cellos in one staff. Again, not uncommon.

But it seems to me when beginning to enter this score that either practice, having them play either octaves apart or in unison results in occasions when the bass plays out of normal range. If I interpret the parts as unison, sometimes the bass plays out of range too high. If I interpret them as octaves sometimes the bass plays out of range too low.

Que pasa?

You can download the copyist’s version of Beethoven’s autograph score at the link below. That should answer any questions, hopefully. Note that, as Beethoven’s usual custom, the Basses are notated and the Cellos are indicated to follow the written Bass notation (not transposition).

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:IMSLPImageHandler/46249%2Fhfjv

The manuscript copy marks the staves “Violoncelli 1mi” and “Violoncelli 2di e Bassi”. The cellos are divisi and the basses play the 2nd cello part (an octave lower, as usual).

At the start of the A major section, the MS marks the 1st cellos “col bassi” but some published scores (e.g. the B&H edition) continue the two cello staves for the whole movement and duplicate the notes.

This is different from the first movement where the two staves are labeled “Violoncelli” and “Bassi”, and (following the conventions of the period) where both are in unison the cello part has “//” markings rather than duplicating the notes.

Actually the question of the bass range in Beethoven is still a subject of debate. One opinion is that the Vienna orchestra used 6-string bass viols, with the lowest note as F below the cello bottom C, not “modern” basses, and supports this with the fact that in some pieces Beethoven is careful not to write below F for the basses. Contemporary texts on the bass include various rules for how to transpose orchestral parts up an octave when required.

However first movement of Beethoven 7 has bottom C for the basses (and this also occurs in Beethoven 5) and that would be consistent with three-stringed Basses tuned in 5ths C G D, which were also in use at the time.


Thanks so much, Bruce and Rob.

I gotta say, Noteperformer does a pretty sweet job of rendering the first few pages of this symphony.

How many sample libraries have a “Tutti Bassi” instrument that plays Cello at pitch and Basses at the octave below??

HALion has Double Basses + Violoncelli Octave, but the Cellos are an octave higher than ‘actual pitch’ – when you play Middle C, the Cello is playing an octave higher! OK, you can adjust the clef octave to fix that, but you’d think they’d provide the obvious combination.

I’ve actually made my own ‘Basso ottavo’ instrument for GPO, so that I can play Cellos and Basses correctly off one stave.

In the baroque era “Tutti Bassi” usually meant “everybody who doesn’t have an individual part” so it could include bassoon etc as well as strings. It could even include violas, an octave higher than the cellos.

Yes, I know a little about the Baroque. :wink: I just offered it as the type of name that a library might use for such a thing.

If there is a library that does Basses-8va, celli, viole+8va, bassoons, theorbi, organs, harpsichord, and the kitchen sink all on one channel, I’d be interested!

I know you know Ben, but the OP (or anybody else reading the thread) might not!

I guess you would need key switches to select from the range of instruments - and maybe linked to dynamics as well …

I thought there was a plan (one day) to attach Dorico staves to multiple MIDI channels?

The Garritan/Plogue Aria Player can set multiple slots to receive on the same channel. Whether their Basses play an octave lower by default, I do not know. Perhaps some of the other common Players can do the same. (It appears that HALion SE can under the MIDI tab, although only being able to apply a single Expression Map to the channel can be a pitfall for non-strings–say–with different keyswitches that may be exposed as sounds.)

One opinion is that the Vienna orchestra used 6-string bass viols, with the lowest note as F below the cello bottom C, not “modern” basses, and supports this with the fact that in some pieces Beethoven is careful not to write below F for the basses.

However first movement of Beethoven 7 has bottom C for the basses (and this also occurs in Beethoven 5) and that would be consistent with three-stringed Basses tuned in 5ths C G D, which were also in use at the time

The Viennese Violone was pretty well established by the 18th C. Mozart was not the only composer who wrote down to C1.

Knowing that Domenico Dragonetti played the premier of Beethoven’s 7th and that he tuned his 3 stringed bass C1 F2 C3 should help — if that’s the bass he played.

He also played the premiers of the 5th and 6th. Knowing that he tuned the bottom strings of his 5 stringed bass to C1 F1 Bb2 makes the 6th a lot easier to play — if you played a 5-string as I did. I’ve never seen that in a book but bassists trade such lore amongst ourselves. I learned that as a young man the first time I played it. The conductor, himself a bassist, made that remark casually at a rehearsal seeing I played a 5. After a couple days of practice, I had the end of the storm nailed down.

The 5th is easy on a 5 string tuned to B1 on the bottom as I normally did, C1 open or E1 with a C1 extension. It’s just not that hard. I know one player who keeps her standard 4th string tuned to C1 without an extension. The string makers have anything the modern player needs.

Where I live, the community and high school orchestras are the only ones anymore who do not insist on a bassist having the C1. Lots more slots then there are players to fill them in the amateur ranks. Even the part-time semi-pro orchestras require players to have that note. Collectively, they’re known as The Freeway Philharmonic to those players who have gigs in 6, 7 or more to make ends meet.

No, the GPO Basses don’t play an octave lower than the note sent: which is why I made one! Because the sfz instrument definitions are text files, I just duplicated the Bass and added 12 to every key value…! :laughing:

That’s fantastic info!

Evidence from the scores can sometimes be confusing, especially when it came from anonymous copyists not necessarily employed by publishers.

For example there are several early Haydn symphonies where the viola part doubles the “bassi” at the octave, except in quiet sections where the bassi drop out. Copyists sometimes continued the viola part an octave too high, which made the “bass line” higher than even the first violins.

And after any performance traditions have been lost, such things can find their way into urtext editions whether or not they make any practical musical sense.

There are certainly contemporary writings on bass playing which describe transposing “bassi” parts up an octave when they go below the compass of the instrument.

Presumably Dragonetti wasn’t involved with Beethoven’s 8th, where the notation is quite clear that the cellos go down to written C2 but the basses only to written F2.

The 7th and 8th were composed simultaneously in 1811–1812 with the 7th completed mid 1812 and 8th being completed in October. The Battle Symphony, now known as Wellington’s Victory was written 1813. The 7th and Wellington’s Victory premiered December 3, 1813. The 8th premiered February 27, 1814, on another concert with the 7th and Wellington’s Victory. As Dragonetti was known to still be in Vienna at the time, there’s little doubt that he was sitting principal.

Then there is the oft quoted:

Dragonetti, upon seeing the score for Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony,
declared that he would have charged double if he had known how difficult it
was before setting his terms.
See Palmer, Domenico Dragonetti, 151-2.